The Captain: 26 new messages in 12 topics

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Cut & Runners
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/5f8b43a305714f00?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 10:55 am
From: "D. Spencer Hines"

Black, Tankfixer and I were obviously thinking along the correct lines...

The chess game continues...
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
---------------------------------------

Ukraine offers satellite defence co-operation with Europe and US

Ukraine inflamed mounting East-West tensions yesterday by offering up a
Soviet-built satellite facility as part of the European missile defence
system.

By Damien McElroy in Tbilisi
17 Aug 2008
The Telegraph

The proposal, made amid growing outrage among Russia's neighbours over its
military campaign in Georgia, could see Ukraine added to Moscow's nuclear
hitlist. A Russian general declared Poland a target for its arsenal after
Warsaw signed a deal with Washington to host interceptor missiles for
America's anti-nuclear shield.

The move came as the Russian president, Dmitry Medvedev, signed a cease-fire
deal that sets the stage for a Russian troop withdrawal after more than a
week of warfare with its neighbour Georgia.

The deal calls for both Russian and Georgian forces to pull back to
positions they held before fighting erupted on August 8. As of last night,
though, there was little apparent evidence of a Russian pull-out from the
Georgian town of Gori, which Russian tanks and troops took last weekend.
Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, insisted a broader withdrawal
would be contingent on further security measures.

Just hours before Mr Medvedev put his signature to the ceasefire deal,
Russian forces blew up a Georgian railway bridge on the main line west of
the capital, Tbilisi, an act that critics interpreted as a malicious attempt
to cripple the country's infrastructure. Moscow at first issued a denial,
but television footage shot by the Reuters news agency clearly showed the
bridge's twisted remains.

Ukraine said it was ready to give both Europe and America access to its
missile warning systems after Russia earlier annulled a 1992 cooperation
agreement involving two satellite tracking stations. Previously, the
stations were part of Russia's early-warning system for missiles coming from
Europe.

"The fact that Ukraine is no longer a party to the 1992 agreement allows it
to launch active cooperation with European countries to integrate its
information," a statement from the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry said.

It follows a declaration earlier this week from Ukraine's pro-Western
president, Viktor Yushchenko, that the Russian naval lease of the Ukrainian
Black Sea port of Sebastopol would be scrapped if any vessels joined the
conflict in Georgia. ******

EXCELLENT! -- DSH

The crisis over Russia's display of military might in Georgia has alarmed
ex-Soviet satellites states in a broad arc from the Baltics to Central Asia.
Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania, all of which harbour bitter memories of
Soviet occupation, have expressed solidarity with the Georgian position.

Yesterday President George W. Bush hailed what he saw as progress in
resolving the Georgia crisis, describing the ceasefire agreement as "a
hopeful step."

He reiterated, though, that the disputed regions of South Ossetia and
Abkhazia remained part of Georgia, despite Moscow's insistence that they
should now be allowed to become part of Russia. "There's no room for debate
on this matter," said Mr Bush. "The international community is clear that
South Ossetia and Abkhazia are part of Georgia and the US fully recognises
this reality."

RIGHT! MAINTAIN THE TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF GEORGIA. -- DSH

Meanwhile, disturbing reports of abuse of ethnic Georgians in captured parts
of the disputed region emerged. A group of captive soldiers were paraded in
the streets of the South Ossetian capital, Tskinvali, and the bodies of at
least 40 dead troops rotted in the sun.

Teams of ethnic Georgians, some under armed guard, were forced to clean the
streets. It was the first apparent evidence of humiliation or abuse of
Georgians in the Russian-controlled breakaway republic.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message news:...

> ...And little BELARUS.
> --
> DSH
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
> Vires et Honor
>
> "William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:g88sb0$jaf$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>
>> "D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
>> news:etMpk.832$AB3.2171@eagle.america.net...
>
>>>> The concessions the Russians want is the territory.
>>>> And after they get the current bits secure there will rise up another
>>>> separatist faction in another former republic. [tankfixer]
>>>
>>> Yes, such as UKRAINE.
>>
>> I hate to say this, but I think you're probably right.
>>
>> I'm starting to think that this whole business has a lot more to do with
>> the Ukraine than anything much else.
>>
>> --
>> William Black

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 11:07 am
From: "John Briggs"

William Black wrote:
> "tankfixer" <paul.carrier@gmail.comm> wrote in message
> news:MPG.23114a11900643f4989f5c@nntp.earthlink.net...
>> In article <g86ihk$cj4$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
>> william.black@hotmail.co.uk says...
>>>
>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carrier@gmail.comm> wrote in message
>>> news:MPG.230fbb956c84ca8e989f13@nntp.earthlink.net...
>>>> In article <dnpba45mkonsiepqlm971e5eppefei50d3@4ax.com>,
>>>> Jas.HoggOUT@SPAM.gmail.com says...
>>>
>>>>> That's correct. Georgia attacked South Ossetia, a part of Georgia
>>>>> where a majority of the people had said that they did not want to
>>>>> belong to Georgia (and do so even less now than when they voted
>>>>> in favour of independence in 2006).
>>>>
>>>> South Ossetia, where that majority only arrived about 40 years ago
>>>> from Russia.
>>>
>>> The bulk of the South Asian community in the UK only arrived in the
>>> past 40
>>> years.
>>
>> Were they sent by their parent government ?
>>>
>>> It doesn't mean we can shoot them if we feel like it.
>>
>> From reports it would appear the ones shooting civilians with abandon
>> are the Russians and Ossettian militia's
>
> I'm afraid that, as the Georgians are finding out, this is what
> happens when you try and get nasty with the Russians.

The US Military doesn't have a spotless record either.
--
John Briggs

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 11:10 am
From: "D. Spencer Hines"

Briggs = Postmodernism Run Amuck...
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:zNZpk.14689$JM.1372@newsfe16.ams2...

> William Black wrote:

>> I'm afraid that, as the Georgians are finding out, this is what
>> happens when you try and get nasty with the Russians.
>
> The US Military doesn't have a spotless record either.
> --
> John Briggs

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 11:29 am
From: Larry Swain

tankfixer wrote:
> In article <C5mdnWjbWNpAKDrVnZ2dnUVZ_h-dnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> giles@poetic.com says...
>
>>tankfixer wrote:
>>
>>>In article <D_ednbjKONJF8TvVnZ2dnUVZ_t3inZ2d@comcast.com>,
>>>giles@poetic.com says...
>>>
>>>
>>>>tankfixer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In article <bwppk.39$5C.8@trnddc02>, firelaw@firelaw.us says...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>tankfixer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>georgia "attacked" georgia not russia.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>That's correct. Georgia attacked South Ossetia, a part of Georgia
>>>>>>>>where a majority of the people had said that they did not want to
>>>>>>>>belong to Georgia (and do so even less now than when they voted in
>>>>>>>>favour of independence in 2006).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>South Ossetia, where that majority only arrived about 40 years ago
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>from Russia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This is simply nonsense
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ossetia is an ancient region and well defined region and people. They
>>>>>>are neither Russians nor Georgians
>>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>So why would they have an affinity for Russians ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Because Russia has kept them out of Georgia......
>>>
>>>
>>>Simplistic answer.
>>>Next.
>>
>>And it isn't true, because....,?
>
>
> I didn't say it wasn't, did I ?
> I said it wsa simplistic, it doesn't take into account many other
> factors.

Which are?

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 12:24 pm
From: tankfixer

In article <ysWdnR0nO-xw8DXVnZ2dnUVZ_o7inZ2d@comcast.com>,
giles@poetic.com says...
> tankfixer wrote:
> > In article <C5mdnWjbWNpAKDrVnZ2dnUVZ_h-dnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> > giles@poetic.com says...
> >
> >>tankfixer wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article <D_ednbjKONJF8TvVnZ2dnUVZ_t3inZ2d@comcast.com>,
> >>>giles@poetic.com says...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>tankfixer wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>In article <bwppk.39$5C.8@trnddc02>, firelaw@firelaw.us says...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>tankfixer wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>georgia "attacked" georgia not russia.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>That's correct. Georgia attacked South Ossetia, a part of Georgia
> >>>>>>>>where a majority of the people had said that they did not want to
> >>>>>>>>belong to Georgia (and do so even less now than when they voted in
> >>>>>>>>favour of independence in 2006).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>South Ossetia, where that majority only arrived about 40 years ago
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>from Russia.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>This is simply nonsense
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Ossetia is an ancient region and well defined region and people. They
> >>>>>>are neither Russians nor Georgians
> >>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>So why would they have an affinity for Russians ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Because Russia has kept them out of Georgia......
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Simplistic answer.
> >>>Next.
> >>
> >>And it isn't true, because....,?
> >
> >
> > I didn't say it wasn't, did I ?
> > I said it wsa simplistic, it doesn't take into account many other
> > factors.
>
> Which are?

That the "majority" faction are Russian transpants.

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 12:29 pm
From: tankfixer

In article <daZpk.30061$Ft5.25201@newsfe29.ams2>, john.briggs4
@ntlworld.com says...
> tankfixer wrote:
> > In article <aTUpk.73654$Q%5.63581@newsfe27.ams2>, john.briggs4
> > @ntlworld.com says...
> >> tankfixer wrote:
> >>> In article <%oDpk.16787$Mn3.10539@newsfe30.ams2>, john.briggs4
> >>> @ntlworld.com says...
> >>>> tankfixer wrote:
> >>>>> In article <Glzpk.10544$Mn3.4491@newsfe30.ams2>, john.briggs4
> >>>>> @ntlworld.com says...
> >>>>>> tankfixer wrote:
> >>>>>>> In article <dbrpk.7550$%b7.3229@edtnps82>,
> >>>>>>> nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com says...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carrier@gmail.comm> wrote in message
> >>>>>>>> news:MPG.230fdd814059fc78989f22@nntp.earthlink.net...
> >>>>>>>>> In article <c0qpk.42$5C.33@trnddc02>, firelaw@firelaw.us
> >>>>>>>>> says...
> >>>>>>>>>> tankfixer wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> In article <bwppk.39$5C.8@trnddc02>, firelaw@firelaw.us
> >>>>>>>>>>> says...
> >>>>>>>>>>>> tankfixer wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> georgia "attacked" georgia not russia.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's correct. Georgia attacked South Ossetia, a part of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Georgia where a majority of the people had said that they
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> did not want to belong to Georgia (and do so even less
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> now than when they voted in favour of independence in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2006).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> South Ossetia, where that majority only arrived about 40
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago from Russia.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is simply nonsense
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ossetia is an ancient region and well defined region and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> people. They are neither Russians nor Georgians
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> So why would they have an affinity for Russians ?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Your enemy's enemy can be a useful ally
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> They just played a key role in letting Putin ream Bush out
> >>>>>>>>>> with a crowbar. Russia can do more for them than Georgia
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> as the text of the agreement comes out the full extant of
> >>>>>>>>>> Bush's humiliation will become more obvious
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> From the London Times
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4543728.ece
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> August 16, 2008
> >>>>>>>>>> Georgia forced to accept a Russian occupation
> >>>>>>>>>> Tony Halpin in Tbilisi
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> President Saakashvili was forced to accept defeat yesterday
> >>>>>>>>>> as he signed a peace agreement that gives the Russian Army
> >>>>>>>>>> the right to patrol on Georgian soil.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> In a critical amendment to the ceasefire drawn up by
> >>>>>>>>>> President Sarkozy of France, the Kremlin forced Mr
> >>>>>>>>>> Saakashvili to accept that Russian troops could control a
> >>>>>>>>>> buffer zone of Georgian territory up to 10km beyond the
> >>>>>>>>>> border of the breakaway region of South Ossetia.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Mr Saakashvili was humiliated further when the final text of
> >>>>>>>>>> the agreement, delivered personally by Condoleezza Rice, the
> >>>>>>>>>> US Secretary of State, removed a reference to Russian
> >>>>>>>>>> recognition of Georgia's territorial integrity. It referred
> >>>>>>>>>> only to independence and sovereignty, a day after Ser-gei
> >>>>>>>>>> Lavrov, the Russian Foreign Minister, said that the world
> >>>>>>>>>> could forget about Georgia's territorial integrity.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Bush let his mouth make a promise his backbone couldn't keep
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Makes you feel good too doesn't it Vince ?
> >>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter that people got hurt to make you feel good now
> >>>>>>>>> does it ?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> People got hurt to make Vince feel good? How *do* you make
> >>>>>>>> these loco leaps of logic, Tanky?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> He seems to champion anything that makes the US look bad.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I doubt anyone could have prevented this whole mess from
> >>>>>>> happening.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The one person who could have prevented it was George W. Bush.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How would he have prevented the mess in Georgia/South Ossettia ?
> >>>>
> >>>> By leaning (heavily) on Saakashvili. Offering him huge economic
> >>>> assistance in return for making concessions.
> >>>
> >>> The concessions the Russians want is the territory.
> >>> And after they get the current bits secure there will rise up
> >>> another seperatist faction in another former republic.
> >>
> >> Well, they've now got the territory, so the US response worked
> >> wonderfully, didn't it?
> >
> > So what should the response have been ?
> >
> > Even without Pres Bush's previous statements what could any country
> > have done to restrain the Russian from attempting to rebuild their
> > empire ?
>
> You could restrain them from using force if you don't give them an excuse,

And what excuse did the US give the Russians ?

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 12:31 pm
From: tankfixer

In article <dcZpk.30062$Ft5.25396@newsfe29.ams2>, john.briggs4
@ntlworld.com says...
> tankfixer wrote:
> > In article <b73c4598-c546-4f1b-a5b0-1481229a70e7
> > @t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, jacklinthicum@earthlink.net says...
> >> On Aug 16, 10:05 pm, "Billzz" <billzzstr...@starband.net> wrote:
> >>> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >>>
> >>> news:fb97103f-faf2-4ebd-a2bb-6e4b844de7c3@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Aug 16, 5:49 pm, "Billzz" <billzzstr...@starband.net> wrote:
> >>>>> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >>>
> >>>>> news:a28808a4-70b5-4dc7-83ca-3a2dfb46e315@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> >>>
> >>>>>> On Aug 16, 5:02 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hilarious!...
> >>>
> >>>>>>> Gans, the primordial Cut & Runner, blames the American Armed
> >>>>>>> Forces for
> >>>>>>> Jimmy Carter's failed Presidency.
> >>>
> >>>>>>> Farblondjet...
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> DSH
> >>>>>>> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
> >>>>>>> Vires et Honor
> >>>>>>> Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
> >>>
> >>>>>>> "Paul J Gans" <g...@panix.com> wrote in
> >>>>>>> messagenews:g87d3d$f14$6@reader1.panix.com...
> >>>
> >>>>>>>> In alt.history.british tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.comm>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> So how do you feel about Carter and Iran ?
> >>>
> >>>>>>>> You mean the guy the military screwed by providing him with
> >>>>>>>> a hostage rescue plan that was predoomed to failure?
> >>>
> >>>>>>>> What about him?
> >>>
> >>>>>> Then you think (sic!) that Jimmy Carter sat down on his own and
> >>>>>> asked his National Security adviser or the hall porter what
> >>>>>> would be a good idea and they cooked up the concept of sending a
> >>>>>> team of helicopters and C-130s, intentionally required radio
> >>>>>> silence so the helos couldn't fly above a sandstrom, then Carter
> >>>>>> intentionally caused one helo to crash and aborted the mission.
> >>>>>> Sounds like some of those people that ran Special Forces had too
> >>>>>> many medals and promotions playing sugarplums.
> >>>
> >>>>> The guidance, to the military, from the Carter administration, was
> >>>>> "minimum
> >>>>> essential force structure" which meant starting at the objective
> >>>>> and "reverse engineeering" the force structure. I used to do
> >>>>> force structuring,
> >>>>> and was the US Army's project manager to develop their first
> >>>>> computer-graphics-based, three-sided interactive wargame to assess
> >>>>> contingency plans, directly as the result of that plan.
> >>>
> >>>>> I attended Major General Vaught's exit briefing. They included
> >>>>> extra helicopter, but not enough for the sandstorms and a really
> >>>>> bad OR rate. It
> >>>>> was only in the unplanned leaving that one helicopter crashed
> >>>>> into a C-130.
> >>>>> Probably the requirement for the Osprey was originated from that
> >>>>> plan
> >>>
> >>>>> In the Reagan administration the contingency plans were changed.
> >>>
> >>>>> It is common to forget that military failure can sometimes result
> >>>>> from political shortcomings.
> >>>
> >>>> I have obviously spent a worthless life, we used to plan for
> >>>> success. The Osprey won't survive any sandstorm.
> >>>
> >>> It is sometimes hard to understand you. About 1979 I put my
> >>> signature, amongst others, on the US Army's General Defense Plan
> >>> for Europe, which being negotiated within NATO, was not much
> >>> changed when President Carter came into office. I then became a
> >>> student at the National War College, then transitioned to
> >>> operations research/systems analysis, and went to another school,
> >>> then did a force-structuring study, then became the project manager
> >>> to develop a system for evaluation of contingency war plans. Only
> >>> because of the hostage crisis. So I never did have any association
> >>> with the plans of that era. Later, as I intimate, the Reagan plans
> >>> started out with something along the lines of.....first the 82nd
> >>> Airborne Division jumps into the airfield, followed by the 101st
> >>> Airmobile, then ...well you get the picture. Minimum Essential
> >>> Inverse Planning was replaced by the old-fashioned "Power
> >>> Projection." Anyway, I briefed my plan for the wargame, as a
> >>> seminar, at the Army War College, the Navy War College, the Air War
> >>> College, and The National War College, as well as an Assistant
> >>> Secretary of the Army and the Vice-Chief of Staff of the Army. Also
> >>> back at the school to the ORSA people.
> >>>
> >>> So did you author, coordinate, or sign any plans during the Carter
> >>> administration, and if so, did you think that they would succeed?
> >>> Better yet, if you were told about the hostage rescue mission would
> >>> you defy the Secretary of Defense and tell him that it was
> >>> under-resourced. It's a familiar problem that the military really
> >>> wants to do what the civilian authority directs, and sometimes they
> >>> think that they actually can do something which is statistically on
> >>> the short side of success.
> >>>
> >>> I don't have any flip remarks about the Osprey. I can only imagine
> >>> that they thought about sandstorms. I did see a couple of them at
> >>> my son's Marine Mountain Warfare Training Center. They were
> >>> picking things up, and dropping them off at about (I'm guessing)
> >>> 10,000-12,000 foot altitude. Maybe they plan to fly higher than
> >>> sandstorms - but that's not my department.
> >>
> >> They didn't have permission to fly the helos above the sandstorm, an
> >> excellent example of the basic resourcefulness of an Army operation.
> >
> > IIRC the helo's in the rescue operation were not Army.
>
> Helos were Navy, pilots were Marines.

So why are you blaming the Army for the operation of the aircraft ?

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: New Olympic Joke!!
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/18d6840b94dcd038?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 11:12 am
From: The Grand Beckoning

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:26:27 -0700, That Don Guy
<del_grande_news@earthlink.net> wrote:
>The Grand Beckoning wrote:
>
>>
>>Q: How do they fill up the Olympic swimming pool?
>>A: Michael Phelps.
>>
>>
>>BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhaAHAHHAAH!!!!
>>
>>Teeeheeheheheheheehehheheehheehehehehehe!!!!!
>
>I don't know what's sadder - that joke, or the fact that I actually
>figured it out. (RSPWoids need not answer that question.)
>
>-- Don
>___________________________________________________________
>
>No Agony, No Bragony!

Gold, baby, that joke was pure goooold.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: I Served... DSC Harold R Gross, US Navy
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/f3f4fcd318d04987?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 11:18 am
From: Otis Willie PIO The American War Library

I Served... DSC Harold R Gross, US Navy

Harold''s Authorizations and Acknowledgements:

Battle (Navy) E Ribbon
Cold War Medal
Expeditionary Medal
Good Conduct Medal
Honorable Service Lapel Pin
Honorable Discharge
National Defense Medal
Navy Achievement Medal Medal
Navy Unit Commendation Ribbon
Professional, Navy
Retirement Acknowledgement
Sea Service Ribbon
Ship/Boat Service
Vietnam War Era Appreciation

VETERAN'S DAY AND MEMORIAL DAY ARE EVERYDAY. A VETERAN LIVES AS LONG AS HE OR
SHE IS REMEMBERED.

Military Medal Issue Regulations
http://www.amervets.com/isr.htm
Personnel Database and Registry
http://www.amervets.com/library.htm
Individual's 201-A Military Award Report
http://www.amervets.com/13105320634/orc.htm

-- Otis Willie (Ret.)
Military News and Information Editor (http://www.13105320634.com)
The American War Library, Est. 1988 (http://www.amervets.com)
16907 Brighton Avenue
Gardena CA 90247
1-310-532-0634

Military and Vet Info-Exchange/Discussion Groups
http://members.aol.com/amerwar/share.htm

Public Information
http://www.13105320634.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Pakistan's Musharraf to resign as president
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/a9cb94e32758cb71?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 11:22 am
From: J a c k

La N wrote:

> The first is, the bombing(s) of a wedding party was a terrible error.
> Given. The Americans don't bomb innocent civilians intentionally.

Not an error. Merely an unfortunate confluence of events.

Jack

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Did you know that the Russians held a major military exercise just
north of Georgia in July?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/03137ad95460b574?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 11:23 am
From: "Raymond O'Hara"

"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:902845bc-b67c-4fb0-bd0a-4d468405b922@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
>
> Maybe they had advance warning of his intentions. It certainly doesn't
> argue for any sense on the part of the Georgians. They must have known
> about the exercise, it was in the papers and other media. If I were
> the Ukrainian government I would be very wary.

every former iron curtin country is worried.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: I remember when . . .
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/386f1bc5529035e7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 11:44 am
From: Jack Linthicum

Item from the Orlando Sentinel for today

Your Time Snapshots I remember when . . .
I remember when . . .
My ship stopped the demolition man

Paul R. Holmberg
August 17, 2008

When I was in the U.S. Navy, my ship was entering a port in the Far
East in 1955 when we spied a certain type of small ship anchored in
the harbor. We knew instinctively that we would be "attacked" by the
U.S. Navy Underwater Demolition Teams (UDT), the forerunner of the
Navy SEALs, that evening. This was their usual practice.

It was becoming a nuisance, as it happened in almost every port we
entered. Someone would sneak aboard our ship and place something that
said "BOMB" on it. Each evening, we put out a small craft to patrol
around the ship looking for swimmers. When spotted, a bright beam of
light would be placed on them, and they would swim away because they
had been "shot."

Our ship was an LST (landing ship, tank) with bow doors and a ramp. So
one evening, we set an obvious trap by opening the bow and lowering
the ramp into the water, and we waited in the shadows.

Sure enough, someone took the bait and came up the ramp. He was
captured and placed in our brig. The ramp was raised, and the bow
doors closed, and we continued to watch for more swimmers.

The next day, word was sent out asking whether anyone had seen the UDT
commander, to which we replied, "No." We watched as many small boats
set out looking for that missing man, while we had him all the time,
dried off, fed and clothed.

Our LST division commander obtained our captive's word that he would
stop the "attacks" if we let him go but would not betray his stupid
mistake of falling for an obvious trap. We covertly set him ashore, so
he could make up his own story.

We had no further "attacks."

PAUL R. HOLMBERG
ORANGE CITY

==============================================================================
TOPIC: A neocon "Lincoln Brigade" for Georgia / Ossetia ?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/d62b1cdc9a5fe09d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 11:48 am
From: Moishe Oysher

In <AeydneCIS4Fw2zXVnZ2dnUVZ_tjinZ2d@earthlink.com>, "J A" <ae@re.com>
wrote:
>"Moishe Oysher" <moishe@potsmail.com> wrote in message
>news:fjtea4ps40qt40gp5bqb1l4pdpeq294ab5@4ax.com...
>> In <_PydnTcNAcoavzvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, "J A" <ae@re.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Moishe Oysher" <moishe@potsmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:se6ca49f6vvlt0b9kf1tklgoop00q0vkd4@4ax.com...
>>>> In <oomdnQfBiP6lLTnVnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, "J A" <ae@re.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"La N" <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:240pk.7091$%b7.6573@edtnps82...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Jeffrey Hamilton" <bberesford@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:KY%ok.10153$Wm.4025@read2.cgocable.net...
>>>>>>> nilita has I believe, JA, in her killfile, she may well not see _his_
>>>>>>> 'reference' to her. Go with _your_instinct's, tankfixer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cheers....Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>> JA is *spit* indeed in my killfile,
>>>>>
>>>>>The degenerate liar infested hag doesn't like me becasue I called her on
>>>>>a
>>>>>lie she tried to float, during the primary races involving Clinton''s
>>>>>wife
>>>>>and Obama.
>>>>>
>>>>>Degenerate liars hate being revealed.
>>>>>Anything she has to say is suspect, and is almost always inane.
>>>>
>>>> Which is, of course, why you cited her as one of your supposed sources.
>>>
>>>She isn't a source of anything, Einstein.
>>>
>>>He asked who had expressed doubts, I stated I replied from memory- so
>>>what?
>>
>> So, when asked to justify a statement you made, why would you cite a
>> statement from someone who "isn't a source of anything", and "LaN's word
>> is
>> worth nothing, as I remind her of, frequently."?
>>
>> If it's worth nothing then why would you have believed it enough to use it
>> to back up anything in the first place?
>>
>>>It was a minor part the discussion.
>>
>> Well, I guess it's easier to call it a "minor part" when you stick your
>> foot
>> in it so deeply. Doesn't change the fact that you really don't pay all
>> that
>> much attention to what you're saying most of the time.
>>
>> Still, the entertainment value of watching you thrash about is fairly
>> high.
>
>You are a moron.

You keep desperately ignoring the point. No doubt hoping to nobody will
notice that you used the opinion of someone you now claim to never believe
to back up a statement you made.

This is the entertainment I was speaking of. And so far you are thrashing
quite predictably.

>Soon after she denied she ever expressed doubts about Tanky, she posted
>this:
>
>LaN 8/15 post: People got hurt to make Vince feel good? How *do* you make
>these loco leaps
>of logic, Tanky?
>- nilita

Which means... what, exactly?

Let's try this in logical order:

1) You claimed several people had doubted Paul's bona fides wrt/military
service.
2) When pressed for names you chose Ray and nilita.
3) When she denied having ever said that you suddenly claimed that you never
believe her anyway.
4) You are now engaged in a thrash-fest because you screwed up and got
caught.

Are you in Vermont, by chance?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 11:55 am
From: Moishe Oysher

In <MPG.23112f4cb5e3c95d989f4c@nntp.earthlink.net>, tankfixer
<paul.carrier@gmail.comm> wrote:

>In article <sppea4dbp5uo88m1o0fbab3dlm6uaus357@4ax.com>,
>moishe@potsmail.com says...
>> In <XuydnUHFRuOZmTvVnZ2dnUVZ_tfinZ2d@earthlink.com>, "J A" <ae@re.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >You refer to someone named "Anastasia" as a reason for being afraid of
>> >giving some info support to your being a vet, but when asked who "anastasia"
>> >is,
>> >you reply: "Some nice progressives took her to the country. Never came
>> >home."
>> >
>> >I mean, WTF is that supposed to mean???
>>
>> History isn't your strong suite, is it?
>
>The Whoosh of that single referance was so strong it ruffled hair in his
>entire city...

Unless he has managed to construct a simple Google search I doubt he
understands it even now.

>> >A vet?
>> >
>> > People with service are "vets".
>>
>> Let me fix that:
>>
>> 'People with <past> service are "vets".'
>>
>> Do you get it yet?
>That was the context he kept using it in.
>Then he switched his story when he got caught.

I think his real name is "Ed".

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 1:38 pm
From: "J A"

"Moishe Oysher" <moishe@potsmail.com> wrote in message
news:ifrga4hlvi0mevqui4t52dvop1v2ageqsh@4ax.com...
> In <AeydneCIS4Fw2zXVnZ2dnUVZ_tjinZ2d@earthlink.com>, "J A" <ae@re.com>
> wrote:
>>"Moishe Oysher" <moishe@potsmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:fjtea4ps40qt40gp5bqb1l4pdpeq294ab5@4ax.com...
>>> In <_PydnTcNAcoavzvVnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, "J A" <ae@re.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Moishe Oysher" <moishe@potsmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:se6ca49f6vvlt0b9kf1tklgoop00q0vkd4@4ax.com...
>>>>> In <oomdnQfBiP6lLTnVnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, "J A" <ae@re.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>"La N" <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:240pk.7091$%b7.6573@edtnps82...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jeffrey Hamilton" <bberesford@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:KY%ok.10153$Wm.4025@read2.cgocable.net...
>>>>>>>> nilita has I believe, JA, in her killfile, she may well not see
>>>>>>>> _his_
>>>>>>>> 'reference' to her. Go with _your_instinct's, tankfixer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> cheers....Jeff
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JA is *spit* indeed in my killfile,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The degenerate liar infested hag doesn't like me becasue I called her
>>>>>>on
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>lie she tried to float, during the primary races involving Clinton''s
>>>>>>wife
>>>>>>and Obama.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Degenerate liars hate being revealed.
>>>>>>Anything she has to say is suspect, and is almost always inane.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is, of course, why you cited her as one of your supposed
>>>>> sources.
>>>>
>>>>She isn't a source of anything, Einstein.
>>>>
>>>>He asked who had expressed doubts, I stated I replied from memory- so
>>>>what?
>>>
>>> So, when asked to justify a statement you made, why would you cite a
>>> statement from someone who "isn't a source of anything", and "LaN's word
>>> is
>>> worth nothing, as I remind her of, frequently."?
>>>
>>> If it's worth nothing then why would you have believed it enough to use
>>> it
>>> to back up anything in the first place?
>>>
>>>>It was a minor part the discussion.
>>>
>>> Well, I guess it's easier to call it a "minor part" when you stick your
>>> foot
>>> in it so deeply. Doesn't change the fact that you really don't pay all
>>> that
>>> much attention to what you're saying most of the time.
>>>
>>> Still, the entertainment value of watching you thrash about is fairly
>>> high.
>>
>>You are a moron.
>
> You keep desperately ignoring the point. No doubt hoping to nobody will
> notice that you used the opinion of someone you now claim to never believe
> to back up a statement you made.
>
> This is the entertainment I was speaking of. And so far you are thrashing
> quite predictably.
>
>>Soon after she denied she ever expressed doubts about Tanky, she posted
>>this:
>>
>>LaN 8/15 post: People got hurt to make Vince feel good? How *do* you
>>make
>>these loco leaps
>>of logic, Tanky?
>>- nilita
>
> Which means... what, exactly?
>
> Let's try this in logical order:
>
> 1) You claimed several people had doubted Paul's bona fides wrt/military
> service.

" A number of people have have expressed doubts about you, hence the "we".
"

That's what I said.

Try to get things straight, fool.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: I Served... LT Jimmy Carter, USN, President of the United States
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/ff2946020f00f69b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 12:13 pm
From: Pete Granzeau

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 15:17:32 -0700, Otis Willie PIO The American War
Library <themilitarytoday@pacbell.net> wrote:

>I Served... LT Jimmy Carter, USN, President of the United States
>Full Name: James Earle Carter, Jr.
>
>WW2 Victory Medal
>Cold War Medal
>Good Conduct Medal
>Korea War Era Acknowledgement
>Submariner Badge
>National Defense Svc Medal
>Ocean Crossing Acknowledgement

I'm sorry. How did an officer earn a Good Conduct Medal?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: U.S missiles based in Poland
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/2bcaa4b3d2852b94?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 12:14 pm
From: Juergen Nieveler

"Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-ohara@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>> because russia is acting like germany in the late 30s.
>>
>> In what way exactly?
>>
> by creating incidents to save an ethnic minority in a region in another
> country and then coming to the aid of them.
> soon they've swallowed the whole.

Actually, they've only done exactly the same thing that the US/NATO
have done in Yugoslavia... support an ethnic group that wants a
separate country against the evil oppressor.

But of course Georgia isn't Serbia - they've got oil pipelines ;-)

Juergen Nieveler
--
Man who run behind car get exhausted.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 12:14 pm
From: Juergen Nieveler

Fred J. McCall <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote:

>:The russian government has already stated the glaringly obvious to the
>:press: IF they want to launch a huge wave of ICBMs and don't want any
>:interference from those pesky SAM sites, there'll be a couple of
>:missiles with much lower trajectory and flight time launched first...
>:
> Which is about the stupidest thing they can do, since when they do
> that we empty the holes over here before they launch their "huge wave
> of ICBMs".

Hint:
- Flight time of a nuclear SRBM from Russian territory to the SAM base?
- Flight time of the russian ICBMs before they can be engaged by the
SAMs? - Flight time of the US ICBMs before they can strike the russian
silos?

You do the maths... the US ICBMs would get launched at most 5 minutes
earlier than they'd be after getting the launch alert from all those
russian silos/trucks - you'd be striking empty holes.

No, the only way to counter a strike against the SAM bases would be an
all-out attack against civilian targets - welcome back to the world of
MAD.

Juergen Nieveler
--
Too err is human. To moo, bovine

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 12:14 pm
From: Juergen Nieveler

tankfixer <paul.carrier@gmail.comm> wrote:

> After we gave em obsolete versions that were good enough to stop the
> obsolete Soviet tanks Iraq was using.

Because Iraq was inconsiderate enough not to buy obsolete US tanks -
Saddam was an ungrateful bastard ;-)

Juergen Nieveler
--
Breakfast is the most important meal of the day; if you are not home by
then, you are in deep trouble

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 12:14 pm
From: Juergen Nieveler

"David E. Powell" <David_Powell3006@msn.com> wrote:

>> No better incentive then picture of tanks in Georgia to get a deal
>> done. Expect other chess moves to come.
>
> Maybe the Afghan and Iraqi militaries will look for new gear and ammo
> suppliers.

For starters, they'll ask the Georgians what ATGMs they used ;-)

Juergen Nieveler
--
Five second fuses only last three seconds.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 12:14 pm
From: Juergen Nieveler

Fred J. McCall <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Not so much, no. Iran-Contra wasn't about selling "advanced weponry
> [sic]" to Iran.
>
> We also don't live next door to Iran. Russia does. This is stupidity
> on the order of the Chinese selling or giving nuclear technology to
> Pakistan.

I rather doubt that Iran is going to invade Russia anytime soon,
neither is Pakistan going to attack China. Their governemnts consist of
madmen, but they aren't THAT dumb ;-)

Juergen Nieveler
--
Officer: 'Why did you shoot that terrorist 27 times?' SAS Trooper's reply:
'I ran out of bullets, sir'

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Send a Message to JOHN F. BURNS Re: The US military is said to be "
slightly at a loss with the British".
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/be7a0435d824ea0d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 10:51 am
From: "Paul J. Adam"

In message <heSdnYDy_a-EzTXVnZ2dnUVZ_vWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, J A
<ae@re.com> writes
>
>"Paul J. Adam" <news@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:HExrbBO3O3pIFwjo@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk...
>> In message <ZM-dnWniN6Jq8zrVnZ2dnUVZ_rfinZ2d@earthlink.com>, J A
>> <ae@re.com> writes
>>>"Paul J. Adam" <news@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>news:jX0SPcFid2pIFwWG@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk...
>>>> Yet not a single one of them mentions their war-winning contribution to
>>>> the Battle for Basrah. Strange, that...
>>>
>>>What a desparate little fellow you are....
>>
>> So you agree that there's not a shred of actual evidence for battalions,
>> brigades, divisions of US troops being rushed to Basrah?
>>
>> Or have you some evidence to the contrary?
>>
>> You don't?
>
>The Times, the BBC, the NY Times reporting - and you are afraid to try and
>get a retraction on the Americans rushing forces to Basra.

So, you have no evidence. Thank you.

--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides

paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 12:38 pm
From: tankfixer

In article <heSdnYHy_a-KzTXVnZ2dnUVZ_vWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, ae@re.com
says...
>
> "tankfixer" <paul.carrier@gmail.comm> wrote in message
> news:MPG.23112a2223c6305989f44@nntp.earthlink.net...
> > In article <UYOdnXfwdoGZkzrVnZ2dnUVZ_j2dnZ2d@earthlink.com>, ae@re.com
> > says...
> >>
> >> "tankfixer" <paul.carrier@gmail.comm> wrote in message
> >> news:MPG.230fde9f1054f7cf989f24@nntp.earthlink.net...
> >> > In article <ppadnfcRcpxBtTvVnZ2dnUVZ_tLinZ2d@earthlink.com>, ae@re.com
> >> > says...
> >> >>
> >> >> "Paul J. Adam" <news@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> >> news:oeFAdsAiK+oIFw+V@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk...
> >> >> > In message <r-CdnUNdh5Zm7j7VnZ2dnUVZ_tbinZ2d@earthlink.com>, J A
> >> >> > <ae@re.com> writes
> >> >> >>"Paul J. Adam" <news@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> >> >>news:Wnjfz5G5R2oIFwbZ@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk...
> >> >> >>> I'm not arguing with John Burns. He's just a journalist. He got
> >> >> >>> briefed
> >> >> >>> a
> >> >> >>> story, he ran it, that's what his kind do. I'm arguing with you.
> >> >> >>> (And
> >> >> >>> your
> >> >> >>> evasions and deflections continue to amuse).
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>You're pretending that you have info that contradicts the stories
> >> >> >>published
> >> >> >>by The Times, the BBC, and the NY Times.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > No: I'm demonstrating their *lack* of information. You claim
> >> >> > elsewhere
> >> >> > that it's straightforward and simple to work out which units where
> >> >> > deployed where and when: yet this information is sadly absent from
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > stories you cite, and nobody seems able to supply it.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> That's ridiculous and misleading. I never said anything of the kind.
> >> >>
> >> >> I was refering to individual troops mentioning their units in
> >> >> interviews
> >> >> and discussion. And if you look at websites for US bases, they tell
> >> >> what
> >> >> units are based there, COs etc..
> >> >
> >> > You know any army website has to go through a vetting process ?
> >> >
> >> > There are regulations governing what can go up on an offical website.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> You're talking about commands releasing info on units participating in
> >> >> a
> >> >> recent combat operation, for a situation that may soon be repeated.
> >> >
> >> > You may just be catching on, the commands release information, not
> >> > individual soldiers.
> >>
> >> You don't know what you are talking about.
> >
> > So tell us what units got moved south ?
> > If you think soldiers are talking about it all over the place.
>
> You are pathetic.

So you can't back up your assertion that finding out unit's designations
is easy to do.
That soldiers talk about it all the time in interviews and the press
gets all these briefings listing unit designations.

Fact is your knowledge of how the US Army is so lacking you make a fool
of yourself ever time you post.

--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 1:42 pm
From: "J A"

"Paul J. Adam" <news@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:zGxGb5A4UGqIFwtK@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk...
> In message <heSdnYDy_a-EzTXVnZ2dnUVZ_vWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, J A
> <ae@re.com> writes
>>
>>"Paul J. Adam" <news@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:HExrbBO3O3pIFwjo@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk...
>>> In message <ZM-dnWniN6Jq8zrVnZ2dnUVZ_rfinZ2d@earthlink.com>, J A
>>> <ae@re.com> writes
>>>>"Paul J. Adam" <news@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>news:jX0SPcFid2pIFwWG@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk...
>>>>> Yet not a single one of them mentions their war-winning contribution
>>>>> to
>>>>> the Battle for Basrah. Strange, that...
>>>>
>>>>What a desparate little fellow you are....
>>>
>>> So you agree that there's not a shred of actual evidence for battalions,
>>> brigades, divisions of US troops being rushed to Basrah?
>>>
>>> Or have you some evidence to the contrary?
>>>
>>> You don't?
>>
>>The Times, the BBC, the NY Times reporting - and you are afraid to try and
>>get a retraction on the Americans rushing forces to Basra.
>

> So, you have no evidence. Thank you.

I have published pieces from three major news organizations.

You don't have the nerve to present your phony objection to those
organizations. Thank you.

>
>
> --
> The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
> warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
> by fools.
> -Thucydides
>
>
> paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Russia started well planned war by provocations
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/500e1043064315bb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 12:44 pm
From: chouette

Did the US planned the war with Russia, by training and equiping
Georgian Army?
The answer is YES with Israel support.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: DDG-1000 Stability
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/2ae1d263cd52be43?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 17 2008 12:42 pm
From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman)

In article
<71088938-f745-4c59-922a-70012dfe80df@r15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
glof_eng@msn.com (g lof2) wrote:

> The hull of the Zumwalt is designed to reduce greatly the odds it will
> hit by anti-ship missile. Modern anti-ship missiles are estimated to
> have a +50% fatality ratio, that is if it hits it target, it will
> kill the ship over half the time, so avoiding getting hit is much more
> important than possibly survivally of the ship after it is damaged.

Makes good sense if you're sure that is your major threat. Over-
specialising in defence against one threat has been known to cause
designers to neglect vulnerability to other threats. Uncharted rocks
don't care about radar cross-sections, and neither do suicide boats in
port. Ships have to be functional ships as well as weapon systems.

> Therefore any argument that we should not build the the Zumwalt
> because of their hull shape is basic on ignorance of the engineering
> facts, and not one any real knowledge of the design history.

I wasn't arguing that. I didn't have the benefit of reading your earlier
posts on the subject. I was originally expressing reservations and
asking for information; having got some, I acknowledged that the USN's
decision to stop after two ships may not be entirely crazy. Once it's
been seen how they work in practice, some more can be bought.

This might turn out like USN submarine procurement: the SSN-21 Seawolf
class was intended to be the replacement for Los Angeles boats, but
proved to be too expensive, so the Virginias, using more developed
technology at lower cost, ended up being bought.

--
John Dallman, jgd@cix.co.uk, HTML mail is treated as probable spam.

==============================================================================

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Sunday, August 17, 2008

26 new messages in 12 topics - digest

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