The Captain: 25 new messages in 8 topics

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Cut & Runners
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/5f8b43a305714f00?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 8:41 am
From: Dan

tankfixer wrote:
> In article <ul%pk.16075$N93.1411@newsfe25.ams2>, john.briggs4
> @ntlworld.com says...
>> tankfixer wrote:
>>> In article <ysWdnR0nO-xw8DXVnZ2dnUVZ_o7inZ2d@comcast.com>,
>>> giles@poetic.com says...
>>>> tankfixer wrote:
>>>>> In article <C5mdnWjbWNpAKDrVnZ2dnUVZ_h-dnZ2d@comcast.com>,
>>>>> giles@poetic.com says...
>>>>>
>>>>>> tankfixer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article <D_ednbjKONJF8TvVnZ2dnUVZ_t3inZ2d@comcast.com>,
>>>>>>> giles@poetic.com says...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> tankfixer wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In article <bwppk.39$5C.8@trnddc02>, firelaw@firelaw.us says...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> tankfixer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> georgia "attacked" georgia not russia.
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's correct. Georgia attacked South Ossetia, a part of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Georgia where a majority of the people had said that they
>>>>>>>>>>>> did not want to belong to Georgia (and do so even less now
>>>>>>>>>>>> than when they voted in favour of independence in 2006).
>>>>>>>>>>> South Ossetia, where that majority only arrived about 40
>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
>>>>>>>>>>> from Russia.
>>>>>>>>>> This is simply nonsense
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ossetia is an ancient region and well defined region and
>>>>>>>>>> people. They are neither Russians nor Georgians
>>>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So why would they have an affinity for Russians ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because Russia has kept them out of Georgia......
>>>>>>> Simplistic answer.
>>>>>>> Next.
>>>>>> And it isn't true, because....,?
>>>>> I didn't say it wasn't, did I ?
>>>>> I said it wsa simplistic, it doesn't take into account many other
>>>>> factors.
>>>> Which are?
>>> That the "majority" faction are Russian transpants.
>> There would appear to be no truth whatsoever in that statement.
>
> Oh if you say so then it's all settled.

He gave as many references as you did...

Dan

== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 8:48 am
From: Dan

tankfixer wrote:
> In article <9A2qk.133$p72.37@trnddc05>, firelaw@firelaw.us says...
>> tankfixer wrote:
>>
>>>> Which are?
>>>
>>> That the "majority" faction are Russian transpants.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> This is simply nonsense. There are virtually no ethnic Russians there
>
> We are both wrong, if Wikipedia's demographics are to be trusted
>
> It would seem about 2% of the population are Russian.

2% IS "virtually no" from a demographics and political standpoint.

Now, there are OTHER satellite Republics where Russian-pushed
immigration has meant there is a significant (>20%) Russian ethnic
component. People are being told (and others assume) this is the case
in the breakaway regions, but that is administration politicking to
cover their "failed" push of Georgian military assaults into the regions
(others think it was designed to entice a Russian counter move so the
right-wing-controlled media could push anti-Russian politics for oil
pipeline issues).

Dan

== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 8:53 am
From: Dan

William Black wrote:
> "tankfixer" <paul.carrier@gmail.comm> wrote in message
> news:MPG.23114a11900643f4989f5c@nntp.earthlink.net...
>> In article <g86ihk$cj4$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
>> william.black@hotmail.co.uk says...
>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carrier@gmail.comm> wrote in message
>>> news:MPG.230fbb956c84ca8e989f13@nntp.earthlink.net...
>>>> In article <dnpba45mkonsiepqlm971e5eppefei50d3@4ax.com>,
>>>> Jas.HoggOUT@SPAM.gmail.com says...
>>>>> That's correct. Georgia attacked South Ossetia, a part of Georgia
>>>>> where a majority of the people had said that they did not want to
>>>>> belong to Georgia (and do so even less now than when they voted
>>>>> in favour of independence in 2006).
>>>> South Ossetia, where that majority only arrived about 40 years ago from
>>>> Russia.
>>> The bulk of the South Asian community in the UK only arrived in the past
>>> 40
>>> years.
>> Were they sent by their parent government ?
>>
>>
>>> It doesn't mean we can shoot them if we feel like it.
>> From reports it would appear the ones shooting civilians with abandon
>> are the Russians and Ossettian militia's
>
> I'm afraid that, as the Georgians are finding out, this is what happens
> when you try and get nasty with the Russians.

And it appears to be totally erroneous: it was the Georgians who were
shooting civilians before the Russians brought in outside force.

Dan

== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 9:00 am
From: Vincent

Dan wrote:
> tankfixer wrote:
>> In article <9A2qk.133$p72.37@trnddc05>, firelaw@firelaw.us says...
>>> tankfixer wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Which are?
>>>>
>>>> That the "majority" faction are Russian transpants.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> This is simply nonsense. There are virtually no ethnic Russians there
>>
>> We are both wrong, if Wikipedia's demographics are to be trusted
>>
>> It would seem about 2% of the population are Russian.
>
> 2% IS "virtually no" from a demographics and political standpoint.
>
> Now, there are OTHER satellite Republics where Russian-pushed
> immigration has meant there is a significant (>20%) Russian ethnic
> component. People are being told (and others assume) this is the case
> in the breakaway regions, but that is administration politicking to
> cover their "failed" push of Georgian military assaults into the regions
> (others think it was designed to entice a Russian counter move so the
> right-wing-controlled media could push anti-Russian politics for oil
> pipeline issues).
>
> Dan

You are giving the idiots too much credit. They were asleep at the
switch when Bush ran his mouth:

"At the same time, the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia
must be respected -- the territorial [sic] and sovereignty of Georgia
must be respected by all nations. (Applause.)"
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/05/20050510-2.html

Georgia was of course already dealing with De facto breakaway regions
with hundreds of thousands of ersatz Russian citizens. It had Russian
"peace keepers"

What Bush did not say was:

" I know you have regions where ethnic minorities are demanding their
own independence and freedom. Such cases demand the highest level of
restraint, patience and justice. There are many models which accommodate
the needs of all parties for autonomy and protection. But the use of
force to resolve such cases has been shown to be counterproductive all
over the world."

But he didn't

Vince

== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 9:02 am
From: Vincent

Dan wrote:

>
> And it appears to be totally erroneous: it was the Georgians who were
> shooting civilians before the Russians brought in outside force.
>
> Dan

As in many such cases, Im sure at the end of the day everyone was
shooing anyone , but the totals appear to be much exaggerated

Vince

== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 9:10 am
From: "D. Spencer Hines"

Hilarious!

Pogue Brannigan is deeply steeped in the febrile sauce of Bush Derangement
Syndrome.

He combines that fetid marinating with his usual imbibed sauce -- probably
Irish whiskey -- and then posts in High Dudgeon.

Great Entertainment!

The LAST thing Pogue Brannigan wants to do is blame his fellow Left-Wing
Demagogue, the ex KGB colonel, Vladimir Putin -- "Lilliputin".
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Vincent" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:wvfqk.164$w51.41@trnddc01...

> tankfixer wrote:
>
>> You can't hold the US accountable for the poor quality of other countries
>> diplomat's or leaders.
>
> Bush made promises to Georgia.
>
> "Americans respect your courageous choice for liberty. And as you build a
> free and democratic Georgia, the American people will stand with you.

> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2059773/posts
>
> Now since Georgians have no way to know that Bush is an idiot and will say
> anything for a photo op They were stupid enough to believe him
>
> Certainly Georgians can be held responsible for having the stupidity to
> believe Bush
>
> But we can and must hold US leadership responsible for failing to
> understand when idiots are leading another country, especially when our
> idiot in chief makes promises he can't keep that trigger action.
>
> Bush is responsible for this fiasco.
>
> Vince

== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 9:12 am
From: "D. Spencer Hines"

Utter Nonsense...
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:g8c105$hvj$1@registered.motzarella.org...

> The ONLY way NATO could support Georgia would be a nuclear attack.

== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 9:13 am
From: Jack Linthicum

On Aug 18, 12:00 pm, Vincent <fire...@firelaw.us> wrote:
> Dan wrote:
> > tankfixer wrote:
> >> In article <9A2qk.133$p72.37@trnddc05>, fire...@firelaw.us says...
> >>> tankfixer wrote:
>
> >>>>> Which are?
>
> >>>> That the "majority" faction are Russian transpants.
>
> >>> This is simply nonsense. There are virtually no ethnic Russians there
>
> >> We are both wrong, if Wikipedia's demographics are to be trusted
>
> >> It would seem about 2% of the population are Russian.
>
> > 2% IS "virtually no" from a demographics and political standpoint.
>
> > Now, there are OTHER satellite Republics where Russian-pushed
> > immigration has meant there is a significant (>20%) Russian ethnic
> > component. People are being told (and others assume) this is the case
> > in the breakaway regions, but that is administration politicking to
> > cover their "failed" push of Georgian military assaults into the regions
> > (others think it was designed to entice a Russian counter move so the
> > right-wing-controlled media could push anti-Russian politics for oil
> > pipeline issues).
>
> > Dan
>
> You are giving the idiots too much credit. They were asleep at the
> switch when Bush ran his mouth:
>
> "At the same time, the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia
> must be respected -- the territorial [sic] and sovereignty of Georgia
> must be respected by all nations. (Applause.)"http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/05/20050510-2.html
>
> Georgia was of course already dealing with De facto breakaway regions
> with hundreds of thousands of ersatz Russian citizens. It had Russian
> "peace keepers"
>
> What Bush did not say was:
>
> " I know you have regions where ethnic minorities are demanding their
> own independence and freedom. Such cases demand the highest level of
> restraint, patience and justice. There are many models which accommodate
> the needs of all parties for autonomy and protection. But the use of
> force to resolve such cases has been shown to be counterproductive all
> over the world."
>
> But he didn't
>
> Vince

Seems the Russians are having problems proving Georgian genocide, the
excuse for the ad hoc attack.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-breakaway18-2008aug18,0,3381598.story
From the Los Angeles Times
No signs of Russia claim of genocide by Georgia in South Ossetia
South Ossetia's capital, Tskhinvali, slowly emerges from shell shock,
but the damage doesn't appear to be on the scale Russia claimed.
Residents blame the bloodshed on Georgia and regard Russia as savior.
By Megan K. Stack
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

August 18, 2008

TSKHINVALI, GEORGIA — A visit to this war-strafed city Sunday turned
up no proof of Russian claims that more than 2,000 people died here.
Nor were there any ready signs of what Prime Minister Vladimir Putin
referred to as "genocide."

The downtown of Tskhinvali, the capital of Georgia's breakaway
republic of South Ossetia, sustained heavy damage in a five-day
barrage of rockets and missiles as Russian troops and their local
allies battled Georgian forces, and dozens of deaths have been
documented. There is still no running water in the city, and residents
are tremulous and shellshocked.

Tskhinvali Regional Hospital had confirmed the deaths of 40 people as
of Sunday, though the number was expected to grow, said Tina
Zakharova, an Ossetian doctor who showed The Times a log of deaths.
That figure included both civilians and combatants: people who died at
the hospital, whose bodies were brought to the hospital or whose
families reported burying their dead in villages.

It has been more than a week since Georgia launched a military
operation in South Ossetia, to bring the pro-Russian rebel region
under the control of the central government. Instead, Georgian
soldiers met a humiliating defeat in an overwhelming Russian
counterattack.

South Ossetian authorities are still laboring to figure out how many
people died in the battles for the capital, Zakharova said. The task
was complicated because some families simply buried their dead in
their yards, unable to bring the corpses to the hospital to be
registered. "There will be more," she said.

Russian officials have claimed that the city was flattened, comparing
the wreckage to the Battle of Stalingrad during World War II. Leaders
in Moscow have repeatedly used the term genocide, and spoke of
thousands of corpses.

Burned-out tanks remain scattered on the streets of Tskhinvali, but
the city's roads and bridges remain basically unscathed. Many
buildings had windows shattered and roofs destroyed; some appear to
have caught fire and burned to charred shells. The streets around the
government center seem to have borne the brunt of the fighting, but
few walls appear to have fallen in the assault.

"You can't explain how it felt. It was horrible," said Soslan
Borisovich, a vice colonel with the breakaway republic's militia, who
fought alongside Russian troops and manned a checkpoint at the
southern edge of Tskhinvali. "For two days, the ground was shaking
nonstop."

Many Ossetians spoke with anger about the Georgian troops who had
battled their way into Tskhinvali, only to be driven back by the
Russians.

"They were the closest to us before the war, and now they are the most
frightening enemy," said Evelina Kulumbekova, 49, who holed up in the
basement of her apartment building during the fighting. "It feels like
your own brother has cut off your head."

The question of how many people died here is significant in part
because Moscow has used the shocking death toll to justify its
overwhelming military response. Russia sent troops pouring over the
border, unleashed airstrikes and seized control of wide chunks of
Georgia outside South Ossetia and another breakaway republic,
Abkhazia, shutting down the country's main road and severing
transportation links between the capital and the Black Sea coast.

The Kremlin has come out heavily in support of independence for
Georgia's breakaway republics, a move that would redraw the borders of
the post-Soviet Caucasus region. Critics accuse Russia of trying to
engineer a de facto annexation of the neighboring lands, a charge
Moscow firmly denies.

Russia's relationship with the West has abruptly soured with the
military incursion. The Bush administration was infuriated, and post-
Soviet politics were reshaped by a new understanding of the threat
Russia may pose to its Western-leaning neighbors.

Russian leaders say the campaign was necessary to protect the people
of South Ossetia, who feel historical kinship with Russia stretching
back to czarist times. South Ossetians rebelled against Georgian rule
shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, and have been
largely autonomous since then.

"After what happened, it should be clear that they should have self-
determination," Konstantin Zatulin, the first deputy chairman of the
Russian State Duma's committee for the Commonwealth of Independent
States said on Sunday. "The reality is that for 15 years, at least,
South Ossetia and Abkhazia have been independent, in fact."

Seated in a conference room in the main government building of South
Ossetia, Zatulin said he was in charge of a $100-million Russian
initiative to rebuild a section of Tskhinvali. The project, he said,
would create a "Moscow zone" in the city.

"Russia is not annexing. Russia is not invading," he said. "It's not
true. The goal of Russia is peace in the Caucasus."

Zakharova, the doctor, spent the days of heavy fighting in the rancid
basement of the hospital, where staff members set up metal cots and
thin mattresses and treated patients under the glow of bare
lightbulbs. She insisted that visitors climb down to see the basement,
where cobwebs clot the ceiling and the air is thick with the stench of
human waste and blood.

"The world should know," she said firmly. "This should not happen
again."

Recalling the arrival of Russian troops, her blue eyes flooded with
tears. "They were our saviors," she said.

By Sunday, Ossetians were out in the streets, tidying up and swapping
stories of their ordeals as refugees or cowering in bomb shelters.
Wreckage was piled along the sides of the roads in the town's leafy
center, and talk was beginning to turn to the future.

It is unclear what will come next for South Ossetia. Russia has
pledged to back the province's drive for independence from Georgia.
Many people here say they already count themselves as Russians; most
hold Russian passports, the Russian ruble is the going currency, and
the elderly receive pensions from Russia.

Across town, South Ossetian spokeswoman Irina Gagloyeva sat with other
officials in the yard of the government building. Ossetian militiamen
milled around in ragtag camouflage, with knotted bandannas and half-
grown beards. Ordinary life was beginning to stir on the streets --
girls in flowered dresses wandered past, and clusters of old men
gathered.

"You see what the Georgians have done here," Gagloyeva said. "They see
Georgians as murderers."

South of town, past the checkpoint where Ossetian militiamen sprawled
on a junked bed, the silent country road ran back into Georgia proper.
All along the way, Russian soldiers had dug in. They hauled tree
branches and cinder blocks into the road to erect checkpoints, and
pitched their tents in encampments.

The Russian soldiers were practically the only glimmer of life in a
war-drained landscape.

The stench of death hung in the nearly deserted villages around
Tskhinvali. At least two corpses were sprawled on the main road,
swelling in the summer heat. A few old women wobbled along in flapping
dresses and head scarves. Every once in a while, a skinny Georgian man
would appear on the roadside, trying to hitch a ride south to join his
countrymen.

== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 9:20 am
From: "D. Spencer Hines"

Deeeeelightful!

Let's have yet another cunniculan-pygan CONSPIRACY THEORY involving "BIG
OIL".
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Dan" <dnadan56@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LOgqk.20943$Bt6.12389@newsfe04.iad...

> Now, there are OTHER satellite Republics where Russian-pushed immigration
> has meant there is a significant (>20%) Russian ethnic component. People
> are being told (and others assume) this is the case in the breakaway
> regions, but that is administration politicking to cover their "failed"
> push of Georgian military assaults into the regions (others think it was
> designed to entice a Russian counter move so the right-wing-controlled
> media could push anti-Russian politics for oil pipeline issues).
>
> Dan

== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 9:59 am
From: "Don T" <-painter-@louvre.org>

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:Njhqk.847$AB3.2186@eagle.america.net...
> Deeeeelightful!
>
> Let's have yet another cunniculan-pygan CONSPIRACY THEORY involving "BIG
> OIL".
> --
> DSH
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
> Vires et Honor
> Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
>

This is from pbs, Dick Holbrooke ain't no neo-con thug. He's straight from
the Klintoon Administration, pbs ain't no "right-wing media" and Dan is a
dufus dickhead.

Russian intentions contested

GWEN IFILL: Margaret Warner has more.

MARGARET WARNER: And for more on this rapidly developing situation, we get
two perspectives.

Richard Holbrooke was U.S. ambassador to the United Nations during the
Clinton administration. Dimitri Simes has been president of the Nixon Center
since 1994 when the former president named him to head the foreign policy
research center. Born in Russia, he's a long-time U.S. citizen.

Welcome, gentlemen, to you both.

So, Ambassador Holbrooke, when you listen to Vitaly Churkin, what
conclusions do you draw about what Russian intentions are here?

RICHARD HOLBROOKE, Former U.S. Ambassador: Reminds me of Rashomon. He said,
and I quote him, "Russia is the victim." I don't think many people in the
world are going to buy his assessment of what happened here.

The Russians were funding and supporting Ossetian separatists who were, in
turn, goading the Georgians. The Russians deliberately provoked this and
timed it for the Olympics. This is a long-standing Russian effort to get rid
of President Saakashvili.

At the end of the interview, he told Gwen that they would prefer Saakashvili
steps down. The real question is not what they would prefer. We would prefer
that President Mugabe step down in Zimbabwe. But are the Russians going to
leave Saakashvili -- a legitimate, elected, democratic president -- in
office, or are they going to use force to remove him?

As for the cease-fire, let's hope it holds. We, in the Bosnian negotiations,
the cease-fire we had at Dayton was the 34th cease-fire in Bosnia and the
first one that held. So I'm worried about cease-fires until they really take
hold.

MARGARET WARNER: What does what he said tell you about Russian intentions,
particularly in terms of what's happening -- what's going to happen on the
ground?

DIMITRI SIMES, The Nixon Center: Well, I think the good news is that Russia
does not plan to invade the Georgia proper. The good news is...

MARGARET WARNER: Well, they're in Georgia now. You mean permanently?

RICHARD HOLBROOKE: They've already invaded it, Dimitri.

DIMITRI SIMES: No, they're in South Ossetia.

RICHARD HOLBROOKE: They're all over Georgia. They bombed the airports.
They're in Gori. They're in the port of Pori. That's an amazing statement
you just said.

DIMITRI SIMES: Well, I made the statement which is factual. They bombed.
They shelled. There were a couple of incursions, but the Russians are making
very clear that they're not planning to take over Georgia.

The Russians' forces, contrary to Saakashvili's original allegations, are
not in Gori. And this is a fact.

And I think that the secretary of state is exactly right. We should tell the
Russians that not only we expect them not to be in the Georgia proper, but
should they try to be there, there would be serious consequences.

And by serious consequences, I don't mean warnings. I mean military
assistance to Georgia, making sure that Russian aggression inside the
Georgia proper would become a new Afghanistan for Russia.

MARGARET WARNER: But do you agree with Richard Holbrooke that their ultimate
aim is perhaps to unseat Saakashvili?

DIMITRI SIMES: You know, I think that Mr. Holbrooke is right, that this is a
strong preference, and they're not hiding it. It was American strong
preference to unseat Milosevic.

But the United States did not make removal of Milosevic a condition, as
Ambassador Holbrooke knows better than me. It was a contributing factor
American NATO success against Milosevic that Milosevic was removed by his
own people

MARGARET WARNER: By the Serbian people.

DIMITRI SIMES: The Russians are entitled to hope whatever, but I think they
should be very strongly encouraged by the Bush administration to negotiate
not with some anonymous members of Saakashvili leadership, but, of course,
with the president himself and the (inaudible)

MARGARET WARNER: Now, Churkin and all the other statements out of Moscow,
Ambassador Holbrooke, seem to indicate that -- well, they do say that Russia
expects to be able to keep its -- what he calls its peacekeepers in these
breakaway provinces, but the Georgian troops must move back not only out of
those provinces, but even way back so they can't shell.

Now, is that in U.S. interests? Do you think that should be acceptable to
the U.S.?

RICHARD HOLBROOKE: Abkhazia and South Ossetia are longstanding disputed
areas. The current Russian position is essentially de facto annexation
without changing the international border.

But I need to point out to your viewers the facts here. Over two years ago,
Vladimir Putin cut off all rail, sea, land, and air, and postal service
between Georgia and Russia, started throwing Georgians out of Russia, and
began a campaign to undermine President Saakashvili, came very close to
doing it. There was a referendum; there was a lot of drama. And Saakashvili
survived with great popular support.

The Russian approach to -- Dimitri is quite right about Milosevic, but the
analogy doesn't hold. The Russians seek to destroy a freely elected,
democratic, pro-American, pro-Western country on its border.

It is simply not true, as my friend Dimitri just said, that the Russian
troops are not outside Ossetia and Abkhazia. That's just factually false.

Besides which, wherever the troops are, they are bombing every major
airstrip in the country. The Black Sea Fleet is mobilized.

As far as Abkhazia and Ossetia, let's set those aside. The real issue is the
survival of a democratically elected regime. And the real goal of Moscow is
to overthrow them.

And one last point, which Dimitri knows to be true: Vladimir Putin and
Mikheil Saakashvili really have a personal enmity, which transcends the
historic enmities of the two countries, and I think is an additional factor
in this.

Personal feud minus diplomacy

MARGARET WARNER: Do you agree, personal enmity is a factor?

DIMITRI SIMES: I agree. Definitely personal enmity. It's perfectly mutual on
both sides.

But let me try to respond to what Ambassador Holbrooke said. First, I want
to be clear about the facts. I did not say that there are no Russian units
somewhere in hot pursuit in the Georgia proper. I said very clearly,
however, that there is no major Russian invasion of Georgia. And this is
good news, and that is what is essential for the United States.

Second, Ambassador Holbrooke knows Saakashvili well. I met Saakashvili, but
I don't know him that well, but I know a lot of Georgian opposition with
this, including somebody Ambassador Holbrooke I'm sure knows well and
respects close, Salome Zurabishvili, Saakashvili's former foreign minister.

They think that this man is a hothead, that he started this military
operation without serious strategic planning, and there are major problems
with Georgian democracy.

This is not black-and-white. There are no good guys in this situation. And
we have to be very careful not to allow a situation like with Iraq, when we
don't care about the facts, when we say Saddam Hussein is a tyrant, and then
it doesn't matter. Are there weapons of mass destruction? Is he supporting
terrorists? These things are very important.

MARGARET WARNER: Do you think there's been a rush to judgment in the West
here about Russia being the bad guy and Georgia being the good guy, victim?

RICHARD HOLBROOKE: Quite the contrary. The Russians have succeeded in
disseminating confusion about what happened.

Dimitri and I have a deep disagreement here, but we're not going to resolve
it.

And I don't think there's been a rush to judgment. Thousands of Russian
troops and airplanes have been destroying a neighboring country, they say in
response to something Georgia did in Ossetia. Even if that were true -- and
it isn't -- it would not justify what's happened.

And the Bush administration's response here has been wholly inadequate until
today.

MARGARET WARNER: Gentlemen, let me, before we close, introduce one other
topic that Vitaly Churkin alluded to and the Russians often cite, which is
essentially the suggestion that the United States helped encourage
Saakashvili in many ways here into perhaps thinking that he could get away
with an incursion.

RICHARD HOLBROOKE: Well, that is -- I started to address that. President
Bush is incredibly popular in Georgia. The big avenue from the airport into
town is named after him. He got a huge crowd when he went there. He's always
supported Saakashvili, and the Georgians look to us as friends

MARGARET WARNER: Talked about Georgia coming into NATO...

RICHARD HOLBROOKE: Yes, has supported NATO membership. But the United States
did not back this up with diplomacy.

Let me just contrast it. Ten years ago, there was a similar crisis between
Russia and Georgia over the two enclaves. President Clinton dispatched the
deputy secretary of state, Strobe Talbott, who was also well-known as one of
his closest friends, who shuttled back and forth between Moscow and Tbilisi,
who calmed it down and resolved it for the time being.

This time around, this administration sent no one to Moscow. It was Sarkozy
who did the good job today. And they sent a very low-level person, a deputy
assistant secretary of state, only to Tbilisi and only for theater. That is
not the kind of American leadership we want.

And in that sense, your point is correct. The American leadership role was
abdicated, as the Wall Street Journal said today. The president and the
secretary of state took their eyes off the ball.

MARGARET WARNER: But so do you think there were sins of omission, as
Ambassador Holbrooke says, or even something broader, provoking Russia...

DIMITRI SIMES: I don't believe that anybody in the Bush administration have
encouraged Saakashvili to attack the South Ossetian city of Tskhinvali. And
this city was essentially destroyed.

And in order to reach the city, the Georgian troops had to go through
positions of the Russian peacekeeping battalion. And dozens of Russian
peacekeepers were killed and wounded.

Now, Putin may be a bad guy. Russians have done wrong things in South
Ossetia. I agree with Ambassador Holbrooke.

But I do not imagine that if an American battalion was attacked by anyone,
anywhere that we would take the position that this is kind of OK and that
this is not a provocation.

The Bush administration was sending Mr. Saakashvili mixed signals. He was
told, "Don't start this war." But he also was told, "Mikheil, we love you.
We're with you. You are a beacon of democracy in the region."

And he got an idea -- he got an idea that he would proceed with a little
blitzkrieg in South Ossetia, he would have victory of the ground, and that
the United States would support him.

RICHARD HOLBROOKE: I don't know how to respond, because even the language
Dimitri used, peacekeepers, is not acceptable to me as an accurate
portrayal.

But we're not going to decode this. The Russians spent two years provoking
Russia -- provoking Georgia. Maybe they sucker-punched Georgia; we're not
sure. But the timing, the action, the unbelievable brutality of it,
reminiscent of Prague '68, Budapest '56, is heartbreaking.

And I want to stress, closing this. I'm not a warmonger, and I don't want a
new Cold War any more than Dimitri does. We've worked together in the past.
We both share a vision of Russia as an important part of the world, seeking
solutions to climate change, energy, and stability.

But this is a chilling effect. The Russians wish to re-establish a historic
area of hegemony that includes Ukraine. And it is no accident that the other
former Soviet republics are watching this and extraordinarily upset, as
Putin progresses with an attempt to re-create a kind of a hegemonic space.

MARGARET WARNER: All right, we have to leave it there. Richard Holbrooke,
Dimitri Simes, thank you.

Don Thompson

Stolen from Dan: "Just thinking, besides, I watched 2 dogs mating once,
and that makes me an expert. "

There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance.
~Goethe

It is a worthy thing to fight for one's freedom;
it is another sight finer to fight for another man's.
~Mark Twain

> "Dan" <dnadan56@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:LOgqk.20943$Bt6.12389@newsfe04.iad...
>
>> Now, there are OTHER satellite Republics where Russian-pushed immigration
>> has meant there is a significant (>20%) Russian ethnic component. People
>> are being told (and others assume) this is the case in the breakaway
>> regions, but that is administration politicking to cover their "failed"
>> push of Georgian military assaults into the regions (others think it was
>> designed to entice a Russian counter move so the right-wing-controlled
>> media could push anti-Russian politics for oil pipeline issues).
>>
>> Dan
>
>

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 10:28 am
From: "William Black"

"Fred J. McCall" <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:fauia414la8s92djlkp3d9spasegl3l867@4ax.com...
> "William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> :
> :"tankfixer" <paul.carrier@gmail.comm> wrote in message
> :news:MPG.23126c3670a74e77989f7d@nntp.earthlink.net...
> :
> :
> :> So a small republic like Georgia would be of little conseqence as a
> Nato
> :> member.
> :
> :It's a pretty lethal consequence.
> :
> :The ONLY way NATO could support Georgia would be a nuclear attack.
> :
>
> Why is that, Willie? Georgia has a direct land border with a NATO
> country.

Not one anyone with a brain would care to pass armoured vehicles over.

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 10:29 am
From: "William Black"

"Larry Swain" <giles@poetic.com> wrote in message
news:4JudnRfD47UDEjTVnZ2dnUVZ_oPinZ2d@comcast.com...
> William Black wrote:
>> "tankfixer" <paul.carrier@gmail.comm> wrote in message
>> news:MPG.2312aa5c1e60023989fad@nntp.earthlink.net...
>>
>>
>>>They seem to think the Russians will treat them as equals, why I can't
>>>imagine why.
>>>I don't recall anyplace the Russians doing that.
>>
>>
>> No.
>>
>> They seem to think the Russians will treat them better than the
>> Georgians.
>>
>> As they have recent experience of both I think they probably know which
>> is preferable.
>>
>
> I'm not convinced of that

But they are...

--
William Black

==============================================================================
TOPIC: President Apostate? -- Obama & Islam
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/f71765ccc57c2f0c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 8:49 am
From: "John Briggs"

Jack Linthicum wrote:
> On Aug 18, 10:11 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Aug 18, 9:49 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 18, 9:34 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Aug 18, 9:16 am, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
>>>>> news:0f81711a-a140-4e35-a20e-faffae033ffb@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Aug 18, 6:56 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On Aug 18, 1:01 am, tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.comm> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> In article <iv4qk.138$UX.20@trnddc03>, fire...@firelaw.us
>>>>>>> says...
>>
>>>>>>>> Tiger wrote:
>>>>>>>>> D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Provocative & Trenchant...
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Essential Reading
>>
>>>>>>>>> Different take on things. There are 50 reasons not to vote
>>>>>>>>> for the guy.
>>>>>>>>> I guess this is 51 on the list...
>>
>>>>>>>> only for the brain dead who suck up to BIG LIES
>>
>>>>>>> You know I've asked for reasons to vote for Obama.
>>>>>>> All I ever got was insults and moronic comments.
>>
>>>>>>> Do you have any reasons TO vote for the guy Vince ?
>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy
>>>>>>> and taste Goode with Ketchup.
>>
>>>>>> Then I would suggest that you vote for whomever you choose and
>>>>>> shut the fuck up about being "convinced". One reason might be the
>>>>>> impending Democratic wave, McCain would be a President with
>>>>>> insufficient Congressional backing to get any of his looney ideas
>>>>>> passed. You don't write like you make more than $250,000.
>>
>>>>> The coming Demo gains in Congress would be a good
>>>>> reason
>>>>> to vote for McCain.....Rep Prez and Demo Congress.....splits are
>>>>> how
>>>>> the Fed govt works best.
>>
>>>>> ****************************
>>
>>>>> I would tend to agree.
>>
>>>>> Personally, I don't care who gets voted in as POTUS. What bugs me
>>>>> are bogus reasons that people give for *not* voting for a
>>>>> candidate, which shows intellectual laziness and paranoia and
>>>>> dishonesty on the parts of some people. I refer most recently to
>>>>> the so-called Obama-Muslim connection.
>>
>>>>> - nilita
>>
>>>> Or McCain is too old or a war-monger or is a "cad"? (Dems
>>>> quoting Nancy Reagan is a real hoot) It comes from both
>>>> sides....usually "supporters" of the candidates so any really off
>>>> the wall/distasteful claims can be safely kept at a distance. I
>>>> still say we haven't seen anything yet....the Muslim crap is just
>>>> the tip of the iceberg...the "nigger" sh*t will be popping up soon
>>>> enough.
>>
>>> No, no...subtlety. Obama's "judgement", of Obama's
>>> "unpredictability", "trustworthiness", and so forth, all boil down
>>> to one phrase: "Obama is a scary nigger!". That's it.
>>
>>> And he is arrogant, a new way of saying "uppity", plus being
>>> elitist.
>>
>>> Let's work on that one. A child without a father is raised by his
>>> single mother and grandparents, earns a scholarship to a prestegous
>>> prep school, attends three universities on student loans and works
>>> as community organizer as compared with the son of an admiral,
>>> grandson of an admiral, who finished fifth from the bottom of his
>>> class, worked as a liaison in the Senate, got elected to Congress
>>> and Senate, married a millionairess, has ten homes, and is just one
>>> of the folks.
>>
>> But, but Obama's middle name is Muhammed! He attended
>> a sharia where he learned to hate America! His wife is ashamed of the
>> US! Oh, did I forget to tell you he's a Muslim? Not to mention an
>> uppity nigger? I'm sure he's also a Commie who diddles altar boys
>> alongside his racist, America-hating minister!
>
> Hussein

Satire :-)
--
John Briggs

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 9:38 am
From: "deemsbill@aol.com"

On Aug 18, 10:20 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> On Aug 18, 10:11 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 18, 9:49 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 18, 9:34 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Aug 18, 9:16 am, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> > > > >news:0f81711a-a140-4e35-a20e-faffae033ffb@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > On Aug 18, 6:56 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Aug 18, 1:01 am, tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.comm> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > In article <iv4qk.138$UX.20@trnddc03>, fire...@firelaw.us says...
>
> > > > > > > > Tiger wrote:
> > > > > > > > > D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> Provocative & Trenchant...
>
> > > > > > > > >> Essential Reading
>
> > > > > > > > > Different take on things. There are 50 reasons not to vote for the
> > > > > > > > > guy.
> > > > > > > > > I guess this is 51 on the list...
>
> > > > > > > > only for the brain dead who suck up to BIG LIES
>
> > > > > > > You know I've asked for reasons to vote for Obama.
> > > > > > > All I ever got was insults and moronic comments.
>
> > > > > > > Do you have any reasons TO vote for the guy Vince ?
>
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
> > > > > > > Goode with Ketchup.
>
> > > > > > Then I would suggest that you vote for whomever you choose and shut
> > > > > > the fuck up about being "convinced". One reason might be the
> > > > > > impending Democratic wave, McCain would be a President with
> > > > > > insufficient Congressional backing to get any of his looney ideas
> > > > > > passed. You don't write like you make more than $250,000.
>
> > > > > The coming Demo gains in Congress would be a good reason
> > > > > to vote for McCain.....Rep Prez and Demo Congress.....splits are how
> > > > > the Fed govt works best.
>
> > > > > ****************************
>
> > > > > I would tend to agree.
>
> > > > > Personally, I don't care who gets voted in as POTUS. What bugs me are bogus
> > > > > reasons that people give for *not* voting for a candidate, which shows
> > > > > intellectual laziness and paranoia and dishonesty on the parts of some
> > > > > people. I refer most recently to the so-called Obama-Muslim connection.
>
> > > > > - nilita
>
> > > > Or McCain is too old or a war-monger or is a "cad"? (Dems
> > > > quoting Nancy Reagan is a real hoot) It comes from both
> > > > sides....usually "supporters" of the candidates so any really off the
> > > > wall/distasteful claims can be safely kept at a distance. I still say
> > > > we haven't seen anything yet....the Muslim crap is just the tip of the
> > > > iceberg...the "nigger" sh*t will be popping up soon enough.
>
> > > No, no...subtlety. Obama's "judgement", of Obama's "unpredictability",
> > > "trustworthiness", and so forth, all boil down to one phrase: "Obama
> > > is a scary nigger!". That's it.
>
> > > And he is arrogant, a new way of saying "uppity", plus being elitist.
>
> > > Let's work on that one. A child without a father is raised by his
> > > single mother and grandparents, earns a scholarship to a prestegous
> > > prep school, attends three universities on student loans and works as
> > > community organizer as compared with the son of an admiral, grandson
> > > of an admiral, who finished fifth from the bottom of his class, worked
> > > as a liaison in the Senate, got elected to Congress and Senate,
> > > married a millionairess, has ten homes, and is just one of the folks.
>
> > But, but Obama's middle name is Muhammed! He attended a
> > sharia where he learned to hate America! His wife is ashamed of the
> > US! Oh, did I forget to tell you he's a Muslim? Not to mention an
> > uppity nigger? I'm sure he's also a Commie who diddles altar boys
> > alongside his racist, America-hating minister!
>
> Hussein

Sigh.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 9:39 am
From: "deemsbill@aol.com"

On Aug 18, 11:49 am, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Jack Linthicum wrote:
> > On Aug 18, 10:11 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> On Aug 18, 9:49 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> On Aug 18, 9:34 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> On Aug 18, 9:16 am, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> >>>>>news:0f81711a-a140-4e35-a20e-faffae033ffb@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> >>>>> On Aug 18, 6:56 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
> >>>>> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> On Aug 18, 1:01 am, tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.comm> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> In article <iv4qk.138$UX.20@trnddc03>, fire...@firelaw.us
> >>>>>>> says...
>
> >>>>>>>> Tiger wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Provocative & Trenchant...
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Essential Reading
>
> >>>>>>>>> Different take on things. There are 50 reasons not to vote
> >>>>>>>>> for the guy.
> >>>>>>>>> I guess this is 51 on the list...
>
> >>>>>>>> only for the brain dead who suck up to BIG LIES
>
> >>>>>>> You know I've asked for reasons to vote for Obama.
> >>>>>>> All I ever got was insults and moronic comments.
>
> >>>>>>> Do you have any reasons TO vote for the guy Vince ?
>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy
> >>>>>>> and taste Goode with Ketchup.
>
> >>>>>> Then I would suggest that you vote for whomever you choose and
> >>>>>> shut the fuck up about being "convinced". One reason might be the
> >>>>>> impending Democratic wave, McCain would be a President with
> >>>>>> insufficient Congressional backing to get any of his looney ideas
> >>>>>> passed. You don't write like you make more than $250,000.
>
> >>>>> The coming Demo gains in Congress would be a good
> >>>>> reason
> >>>>> to vote for McCain.....Rep Prez and Demo Congress.....splits are
> >>>>> how
> >>>>> the Fed govt works best.
>
> >>>>> ****************************
>
> >>>>> I would tend to agree.
>
> >>>>> Personally, I don't care who gets voted in as POTUS. What bugs me
> >>>>> are bogus reasons that people give for *not* voting for a
> >>>>> candidate, which shows intellectual laziness and paranoia and
> >>>>> dishonesty on the parts of some people. I refer most recently to
> >>>>> the so-called Obama-Muslim connection.
>
> >>>>> - nilita
>
> >>>> Or McCain is too old or a war-monger or is a "cad"? (Dems
> >>>> quoting Nancy Reagan is a real hoot) It comes from both
> >>>> sides....usually "supporters" of the candidates so any really off
> >>>> the wall/distasteful claims can be safely kept at a distance. I
> >>>> still say we haven't seen anything yet....the Muslim crap is just
> >>>> the tip of the iceberg...the "nigger" sh*t will be popping up soon
> >>>> enough.
>
> >>> No, no...subtlety. Obama's "judgement", of Obama's
> >>> "unpredictability", "trustworthiness", and so forth, all boil down
> >>> to one phrase: "Obama is a scary nigger!". That's it.
>
> >>> And he is arrogant, a new way of saying "uppity", plus being
> >>> elitist.
>
> >>> Let's work on that one. A child without a father is raised by his
> >>> single mother and grandparents, earns a scholarship to a prestegous
> >>> prep school, attends three universities on student loans and works
> >>> as community organizer as compared with the son of an admiral,
> >>> grandson of an admiral, who finished fifth from the bottom of his
> >>> class, worked as a liaison in the Senate, got elected to Congress
> >>> and Senate, married a millionairess, has ten homes, and is just one
> >>> of the folks.
>
> >> But, but Obama's middle name is Muhammed! He attended
> >> a sharia where he learned to hate America! His wife is ashamed of the
> >> US! Oh, did I forget to tell you he's a Muslim? Not to mention an
> >> uppity nigger? I'm sure he's also a Commie who diddles altar boys
> >> alongside his racist, America-hating minister!
>
> > Hussein
>
> Satire :-)
> --
> John Briggs

Yay! I thought it was enough over the top that it
didn't need an emoticon.....but with the level of political discourse
these days.......

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 9:59 am
From: "Raymond O'Hara"

"tankfixer" <paul.carrier@gmail.comm> wrote in message
news:MPG.23132373a92a1189989fbc@nntp.earthlink.net...
>>
>> Let's work on that one. A child without a father is raised by his
>> single mother and grandparents, earns a scholarship to a prestegous
>> prep school, attends three universities on student loans and works as
>> community organizer as compared with the son of an admiral, grandson
>> of an admiral, who finished fifth from the bottom of his class, worked
>> as a liaison in the Senate, got elected to Congress and Senate,
>> married a millionairess, has ten homes, and is just one of the folks.
>
> What you have isn't what determines if you are elitist, how you act
> does.
>

what's more elitist than owning 10 homes?

and why would we want one of the elite tro be our leader, the moron bush
has been so effective hasn't he.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 10:33 am
From: "William Black"

<deemsbill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:27847fc2-7a9c-425e-8440-b848dbe7e0a5@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

But, but Obama's middle name is Muhammed! He attended a
sharia where he learned to hate America! His wife is ashamed of the
US! Oh, did I forget to tell you he's a Muslim? Not to mention an
uppity nigger? I'm sure he's also a Commie who diddles altar boys
alongside his racist, America-hating minister!

----------------------------

Oh very good, but you really should use a smiley face, some people will
misunderstand...

--
William Black

==============================================================================
TOPIC: LAVROV on American *PIGS* and low-lives; "when militant secularism acts
from positions which differ little from state religion"
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/eb1ef6416603f56a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 8:52 am
From: the 3rd Man

On Aug 17, 4:47 am, Mort Zuckerman <morph...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Americans DON'T CARE about the hardships of others.
>
> TRUE!!!
> Look at Lyme Disease.

No one would help me, personally, or even with
> the Lyme activism,

I think you would be surprised to find that people WILL help...if you
are humble enough to admit that you need help and ask for help.

But doing what you want...may not be HELPING you.

Arrogantly telling others (some of whom may actually be trying to help
you) that they are "stupid" and that they have small penises really
doesn't win friends and influence others...or rally others to your
cause.

And your 'cause' seems to be extremely offensive, negative, hurtful
and insulting.

Lisa tried to assist you...in your "activism" (although I doubt that
was really helping you)...and you repaid her with your neo-Nazi
bashing of her ancestors...for which you even refused to apologize.

> so that I would not have THAT to do, too, but everyone is my critic,
> once the crime
> is solved:>

There is NO "crime", except in your imagination. (Actually, maybe it
is your imagination that is the crime, if you think about it).

> EVERYONE is my critic, while doing nothing themselves.

> and then Pat
> Smith tells me to my face at the Albany Rally, that I can take a hike,

Well, good for the "Pat".

For once, she managed to do something useful.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: "Georgia will be in NATO..." - said Ms. Merkel
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/05b8c3e01b2024c0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 8:53 am
From: dumpster4@hotmail.com

On Aug 18, 7:07 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Aug 18, 9:41 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > :On Aug 17, 8:25 pm, dumpst...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > :> Russia 'distributing passports in the Crimea'
> > :>
> > :> See:
> > :>
> > :>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/2575421/Russ...
> > :>
> > :> Uh oh.
> > :
> > : I'm pretty sure the Ukraine is a bit tougher than Georgia....and
> > :would get quite a bit more help.
> > :
>
> > Ok, I have to ask.
>
> > What's the point of including the link in the quote if you truncate it
> > so that it is unusable?
>
> Don't ask me.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The link works in my original post. It only gets truncated when my
post
is quoted in the replies. I just tried it on my terminal, and the
link in
my original post worked fine.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Musharrif resigns
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/f15608b0a496ca3b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 9:11 am
From: "a425couple"

"Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-ohara@hotmail.com> wrote ...
> He's packing it in and has appologized and asked for the people
> to forgive his mistakes.
> things will get fun now.

Serious!
Ohhh dear! Often, better the 'devil' you have, and know
a decent 'track record' about, and are kinda able to
predict,
rather than the turmoil and fights to follow.
"Fun" - certainly depends on the viewpoint.
"May you live in exciting times" - right!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: usn ... black sea ops....
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/4af468ce275ff2fc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 9:30 am
From: "~^ beancounter ~^"

does the usn conduct black sea ops? if so, what types of assets are in
theater? how do they come and go through the narrow chokepoints
w/out being detcted?....interesting area to try and operate
in...thanx.....

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 9:38 am
From: Jack Linthicum

On Aug 18, 12:30 pm, "~^ beancounter ~^" <richboni...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> does the usn conduct black sea ops? if so, what types of assets are in
> theater? how do they come and go through the narrow chokepoints
> w/out being detcted?....interesting area to try and operate
> in...thanx.....

http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=38435

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 10:25 am
From: "William Black"

"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:010ac0cc-a016-4c15-b61d-7d8a9d8ce4b1@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 18, 12:30 pm, "~^ beancounter ~^" <richboni...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> does the usn conduct black sea ops? if so, what types of assets are in
>> theater? how do they come and go through the narrow chokepoints
>> w/out being detcted?....interesting area to try and operate
>> in...thanx.....
>
> http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=38435

Shipping is limited by tonnage.

There is no possibility of passing undetected. All shipping needs to take a
pilot on-board.

--
William Black

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is John McCain Stupid?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/5cede70d5477caff?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 10:18 am
From: Tiglath

On Aug 6, 4:49 pm, Charlie Wolf <charlie_w...@noemail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:26:00 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
>
> <fire...@firelaw.us> wrote:
>
> >McCain dumped his crippled wife and married rich
>
> I guess we would need to have you post your credentials citing your
> expertise on John McCains first marriage. Do you know something we
> don't? Are you some kind of expert in the McCains marital affairs?
> Do you have access to family counseling records that would lead you to
> side with McCains ex-wife? HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING: What if - and
> this is pure conjecture - What if the first Mrs. McCain was unfaithful
> during McCains captivity in Vietnam? I'm only proposing a scenario
> here that might provide some fodder for fucking idiots like you to
> butt out of McCain's personal life.
>
> It occurs to me that McCains ex has been suspiciously silent about the
> Senator's bid for the Presidency. If she had something juicy - don't
> you think she'd be screaming from the mountain tops about now?
>
> I applaud Mrs. McCain #1 for having the decency to remain silent. I
> also applaud her for the agony she must have gone through while her
> husband was in the hands of brutal communist socialists (like you).
> She has obviously decided that her first marriage is just that - a
> first marriage. And she has obviously moved on - I would hope, to a
> happier existance.
>
> >Those are Solid Republican values
> >no problem
>
> And Clinton fucked an intern in the Oval Office. While he was working
> as a US government employee... In a federally owned building. Your
> point is??? It was NOT his own personal business. Any other
> government employee would have been immediately FIRED for doing what
> Clinton did. They also would have been charged with aggravated sexual
> harrassment.

Dead wrong. If they started firing federal employees caught fucking
or sucking on the job they would have a staff problem.

It is not harassment when both partied consent.

You seem an already upset Republican. If you lose it now what are you
going to do in November?

> That - you fucking idiot - is what I call "a problem".
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> >Vince

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Pakistan's Musharraf to resign as president
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/a9cb94e32758cb71?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 18 2008 10:37 am
From: "William Black"

"frank" <dhssresearcher@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:77bd68aa-b755-4b18-8148-497bd9e92f17@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

, but as far as
tribes, yeah, same as when he was there last time.

----------------------

They're not tribes. They function as complex clans but with an inclusive
sept system and extended families.

----------------------

At least there is literature out there. 30 years ago there was
nothing, except if you were a linguist, but as far as how to deal with
the culture, the only thing was propaganda from the Saudis about how
much His Royal Highness was loved and he was upset again that somebody
in the US said something bad about him.

----------------------

Utter rubbish. there's a huge literature relating to Afghanistan and the
NWF.

--
William Black

==============================================================================

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Monday, August 18, 2008

25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

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