The Captain: 25 new messages in 7 topics

sci.military.naval
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval?hl=en

sci.military.naval@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Britain Declares War On Food Waste - 8 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/9a56ee1b0419235a?hl=en
* Peter the Great's Ship Discovered in Baltic Sea - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/1d989272a8bf3bd5?hl=en
* Army Secretary Asks for Probe of Firing of Arlington Cemetary. Public
Affairs Officer - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/e7b67d30c3e8912e?hl=en
* Iran will target US bases if attacked - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/c1bf23625dcd7318?hl=en
* Shaped Charge in Naval Artillery - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/062518ada3f73c35?hl=en
* The Saga Of Joe Horn: Texas Man Cleared In Shotgun Shootings - 10 messages,
4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/b45c4120f16c2555?hl=en
* Sink a Destroyer, 4 PM History Channel - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/3a1b2b6ad2bc8d96?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Britain Declares War On Food Waste
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/9a56ee1b0419235a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 12:04 pm
From: Jane Margaret Laight

On Jul 12, 11:08 am, "conwaycaine" <conwayca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> "Jane Margaret Laight" <jml27...@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:f5a4d35b-bfd1-48d3-9a1a-32eb1cbfc646@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 11, 3:13 pm, "conwaycaine" <conwayca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> <Snip>
>
> > He was, as we all are, a blend of strengths and weaknesses.
>
> oh horse hockey, brother Caine!
> ***************************
>
> One thing about people and Jesse, few were able to maintain the middle
> ground.
> Anyway
> "The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their
> bones. So let it be with Jesse"
>
and, of course, kind sir, you're right--

so this afternoon, before I do my wash, I will be sure to commemorate
Brother Helms in an appropriate fashion when I separate my whites from
my coloreds... :)

JML
registered independent

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 12:04 pm
From: The Highlander

On Jul 12, 8:12 am, "conwaycaine" <conwayca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message

> Tis true. The sight of all those skinny spandexed legs kicking frantically
> in the air as they plunged off a 500 foot cliff was something to behold.
> We talked about that one for years.

That I would like to have seen. They ride in little packs around here,
swishing past the hoi polloi like me, noses and spandexed behinds in
the air, stopping for no one. They reek of SUVs and GPS systems and
are probably all computer programmers with girlfriends whose sole
function is to dart in and out of Starbucks for fresh coffee.

Recently I created an advertising campaign for one who works as a real
estate agent, and as he had nothing new to say to differentiate him
from the hordes of his fellow realtors, all making the same claims of
expertise, I decided to focus on his cycling and his success as a
sprint cyclist. To my stunned amazement, the public loved it and he is
now wallowing in new business. I can't begin to tell you how much that
annoyed me! At least he had the decency to pay my meagre bill after
some prompting...

I also did some work for a California paint company which had won the
painting contracts for the Beijing Olympics. They were delighted with
the campaign and added a bonus to my bill, along with a note from El
Presidente, saying how pleased they were. Not a cyclist in sight...

And to bring everything back down to reality, a realtor asked me to
write a book for him about making millions from real estate in a
falling market. He decided not to use my services after reading my
detailed quote for the job; saying he was a bit short on cash and
would have to think things over... I can't begin to imagine how bad
the book's advice must be if the expert can't even raise the money to
pay what was a very reasonable bill... When I told the printer that
the deal was off and why, he exploded with laughter. He won't be
buying the book either if it ever gets into print...

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 12:26 pm
From: "conwaycaine"

"Bryn" <brianlovett666@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:6a3324a6-3661-44a3-9f79-bd8583779de2@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On 12 Jul, 16:12, "conwaycaine" <conwayca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
>
> news:XbidnRKUh4luGuXVnZ2dnUVZ8uudnZ2d@westnet.com.au...
>
> > "conwaycaine" <conwayca...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >news:uMJdk.24653$Xe.18506@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
> >> One wreck and the entire pack went down.
>
> > Yes - it's a great spectator sport.
>
> **************************
>
> Tis true. The sight of all those skinny spandexed legs kicking frantically
> in the air as they plunged off a 500 foot cliff was something to behold.
> We talked about that one for years.
>
>
>
> > Happens quite a lot in Le Tour too. Usualy near the back of the main
> > group
> > so no-one really cares that much but, occasionaly, it takes out one of
> > the
> > favourites who was slack enough to be in danger zone at the wrong time.
>
> > I saw a brilliant piece of cycling theatre a couple of weeks back. I
> > can't
> > remember who it was or what the race was but on a really fast descent on
> > a
> > bendy cliffside forest tarmac road one rider - directly in front of the
> > TV
> > motorbike - lost control at high speed, bike hit the barrier and rider
> > went hurtling - with truly spectacular grace - over the edge at about 45
> > miles per hour. The camera bike screeched to a halt right where he was
> > last sighted and (I swear) you could hear the guy crashing over and over
> > through the branches and leaves of the trees and understory below.
> > Eventualy the noise stopped and - while the camera crew frantically
> > debated what to do - the biker eventualy reappeared, clambered up from
> > the
> > jungle below and lifted most of his bike back over the metal crash
> > barrier. Nothing daunted he then gets back on his bike and pedals off. A
> > bit unsteady at first to be sure but SFAIR he was in the winning group.
>
> > Its tough at the top.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The good old days..

Bryn

And the validation word tonight is 'chacite!'

********
Reminds a true Scot of days gone by when they used to fling *nglishmen off
Scottish cliffs.
(Good to see you back posting again)

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 12:28 pm
From: "conwaycaine"

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:Pq6ek.124$AB3.704@eagle.america.net...
> How are Chapel Hill and Durham these days?...
>
> As places to live.

Still college towns with all that entails.
But if you like that sort of artsy/crafty life style, they are yer man.
Charlotte NC, OTOH, rates quite highly as an all around good place to live.

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 12:30 pm
From: "conwaycaine"

"Jane Margaret Laight" <jml27515@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3054ee7c-0894-4878-8c08-b10cc600f4ab@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 12, 11:08 am, "conwaycaine" <conwayca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> "Jane Margaret Laight" <jml27...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> messagenews:f5a4d35b-bfd1-48d3-9a1a-32eb1cbfc646@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 11, 3:13 pm, "conwaycaine" <conwayca...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> <Snip>
>
> > He was, as we all are, a blend of strengths and weaknesses.
>
> oh horse hockey, brother Caine!
> ***************************
>
> One thing about people and Jesse, few were able to maintain the middle
> ground.
> Anyway
> "The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with
> their
> bones. So let it be with Jesse"
>
and, of course, kind sir, you're right--

so this afternoon, before I do my wash, I will be sure to commemorate
Brother Helms in an appropriate fashion when I separate my whites from
my coloreds... :)

JML
registered independent

****************
Jesse would have been most proud of you.
(You'll not be visiting the Jesse Helms Library and Memorial any time soon
then..........)

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 12:48 pm
From: "D. Spencer Hines"

Real Estate Values?

DSH

"conwaycaine" <conwaycaine@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Oy7ek.98$US3.34@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>
> "D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
> news:Pq6ek.124$AB3.704@eagle.america.net...

>> How are Chapel Hill and Durham these days?...
>>
>> As places to live.
>
> Still college towns with all that entails.
> But if you like that sort of artsy/crafty life style, they are yer man.
> Charlotte NC, OTOH, rates quite highly as an all around good place to
> live.

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 12:55 pm
From: "D. Spencer Hines"

Or Scottish Kings who were flung off horseback and over cliffs -- as was
Alexander III.

DSH
-----------------------------------------------

"conwaycaine" <conwaycaine@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:sw7ek.96$US3.85@bignews2.bellsouth.net...

> Reminds a true Scot of days gone by when they used to fling *nglishmen off
> Scottish cliffs.

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 1:52 pm
From: Bryn

On 12 Jul, 20:55, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
> Or Scottish Kings who were flung off horseback and over cliffs -- as was
> Alexander III.
>
> DSH
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> "conwaycaine" <conwayca...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>
> news:sw7ek.96$US3.85@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>
>
>
> > Reminds a true Scot of days gone by when they used to fling *nglishmen off
> > Scottish cliffs.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The Queen Mother did it!

Bryn

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Peter the Great's Ship Discovered in Baltic Sea
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/1d989272a8bf3bd5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 12:15 pm
From: Jack Linthicum

On Jul 12, 2:41 pm, a...@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Robert Breen) wrote:
> In article <3e424f76-555d-4a7e-a5e1-95ba6d299...@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> >I hate to seem even more green than I am but could we have a
> >definition of the term "battleship" please. Are we discussing galleons
> >here?
>
> And whose definition would you like: there are plenty to choose from ;)
>
> "Battleship"/"Liner"/"Ship of the Line" were all names applied to large
> warships intended to participate in fleet actions, forming the main
> battle line (the line being the most effective formation for gun combat
> from the advent of reasonably-rapid reloading in the 1st Dutch war until
> the end of the gun era). The term used varied with time (and with nation,
> of course). "Battleship" may well be the best translatio n of the Russian
> term for these ships, regardless of era.
>
> In about 1719 the chances were that an old sailor in the english-speaking
> world would refer to ships of this type as "Frigates", a term applied
> promiscuous-like to any ship built lower than had been fashionable a
> couple of generations before (and that, itself, leads to interesting
> possibilities). The first RN 100-gun ship was referred to as a "great
> Friggott" when new....
>
>
>
> >FYI Galleons went out of useful service in the mid-17th Century.
>
> That's the dutcch/english type of galleon - which had already more
> or less gone by 1610-ish, with performance sacrified to gunpower
> (hence the rise of the frigate-built ship). The name, however,
> continued in use for large armed auxilaries or merchantmen, particularly
> Spanish ones - as witness Anson's capture of the Manila galleon in
> 17-earlish..
>
> >Replaced by the ship on the ine, of which the Portsmouth seems to be
> >one.
>
> She seems to be a species of 50 - by the standards of the time, a ship of
> the line, visibly related to RN 50-ishes of the time (which in turn were
> descended from the Commonwealth's single-decked 30-s0me gun "friggots",
> which got up-gunned with a second deck after the success of the first
> battle lines.
>
> I recommend Rif Winfield's "The 50 gun ship" for a good history of the
> very convoluted development of the 50s in the RN: as this ship was heavily
> english-influenced[1] in design many of the comments probably apply to her
> too.
>
> [1] Scotland having had its own Navy until 1707
>
> --
> Andy Breen Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
>
> Post-September, somebody figured out that the Internet was
> cheaper than babysitters (Dick Gaughan)

Wasn't the "Manila Galleon" more or less the title of route rather
than of the ships (naos) that took it? The size of the galleon ranged
from 500 to 2000 tons.

The Concepcion was the largest Spanish ship built up to her time --
between 140 and 160 feet long and displacing some 2,000 tons, with a
loaded draft of between 18 and 22 feet. The Concepcion was also one of
the richest galleons of her day, with cargo worth tens of millions of
dollars today. (1638)

http://ns.gov.gu/galleon/index.html

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 1:48 pm
From: George

On Jul 13, 2:54 am, "Raymond O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> This is the Czar designing, if he wants to call it a battleship so be
> it. I worry a bit about the names, Portsmouth and London almost sound
> like omens from the future.

His Navy was based upon the RN anyway.
Any term used by either navy meant the same thing

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Army Secretary Asks for Probe of Firing of Arlington Cemetary. Public
Affairs Officer
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/e7b67d30c3e8912e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 12:30 pm
From: Jack Linthicum

On Jul 10, 10:40 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> On June 27, Gina Gray got her termination memo.Supervisor Phyllis
> White said Gray had "been disrespectful to me as your supervisor and
> failed to act in an inappropriate manner." Failed to act in an in
> appropriate manner? The termination notice was inadvertently
> revealing: Only at Arlington National Ceremony could it be considered
> a firing offense to act appropriately.
>
> Army Secretary Pete Geren, in an interview last night, said he
> couldn't comment on Gray's firing. But he said the overall policy at
> Arlington is correct. "It appears to me that we've struck the right
> balance, consistent with the wishes of the family," the secretary
> said.
>
> Putting Her Foot Down and Getting the Boot
>
> By Dana Milbank
> Thursday, July 10, 2008; A03
>
> The ghost of Rummy is proving difficult to exorcise.
>
> Defense Secretary Robert Gates has tried to sweep out the symbols of
> his predecessor's capricious reign, firing acolytes of Donald Rumsfeld
> and bringing glasnost to the Pentagon.
>
> But in one area, Rummy's Rules still pertain: the attempt to hide from
> public view the returning war dead.
>
> When Gina Gray took over as the public affairs director at Arlington
> National Cemetery about three months ago, she discovered that cemetery
> officials were attempting to impose new limits on media coverage of
> funerals of the Iraq war dead -- even after the fallen warriors'
> families granted permission for the coverage. She said that the new
> restrictions were wrong and that Army regulations didn't call for such
> limitations.
>
> Six weeks after The Washington Post reported her efforts to restore
> media coverage of funerals, Gray was demoted. Twelve days ago, the
> Army fired her.
>
> "Had I not put my foot down, had I just gone along with it and not
> said regulations were being violated, I'm sure I'd still be there,"
> said the jobless Gray, who, over lunch yesterday in Crystal City,
> recounted what she is certain is her retaliatory dismissal. "It's
> about doing the right thing."
>
> Army Secretary Pete Geren, in an interview last night, said he
> couldn't comment on Gray's firing. But he said the overall policy at
> Arlington is correct. "It appears to me that we've struck the right
> balance, consistent with the wishes of the family," the secretary
> said.
>
> Gray, in tank top, jeans, Ray-Bans over her Army cap and flip-flops
> revealing pink toenails, struck an unlikely figure for a whistle-
> blower yesterday as she provided documents detailing her ill-fated and
> tumultuous few months at Arlington. She worked for eight years in the
> Army as a public affairs specialist in Germany, Italy and Iraq, then
> returned to Iraq as an army contractor doing media operations. While
> working with the 173rd Airborne in Iraq in 2003, her convoy was
> ambushed and, she says, she still has some hearing loss from the
> explosion. The 30-year-old Arizonan was hired to work at Arlington in
> April.
>
> Just 10 days on the job, she was handling media coverage for the
> burial of a Marine colonel who had been killed in Iraq when she
> noticed that Thurman Higginbotham, the cemetery's deputy
> superintendent, had moved the media area 50 yards away from the
> service, obstructing the photographs and making the service inaudible.
> The Washington Sketch column on April 24 noted that Gray pushed for
> more access to the service but was "apparently shot down by other
> cemetery officials."
>
> Gates had his staff inquire with the cemetery about the article and
> was told that "the policy had not in any way changed," Gates's
> spokesman, Geoff Morrell, said yesterday. Geren, the Army secretary,
> added that "the policy has not changed, and I understand the practice
> hasn't, either."
>
> That, however, is false. Through at least 2005 -- during Rumsfeld's
> tenure, no less -- reporters were placed in a location where they
> could hear the prayers and the eulogies and film the handing of the
> folded flag to the next of kin. The coverage of the ceremonies -- in
> the nearly two-thirds of cases where families permitted it -- provided
> moving reminders to a distracted nation that there was a war going on.
> But the access gradually eroded, and Gray arrived to discover that it
> was gone.
>
> And soon, so was Gray. After Gates's inquiry into The Post column,
> Gray, still days into her new job, began to get some rough treatment.
> "Gina, when you leave the building let me know," said a one-line e-
> mail from her supervisor, Phyllis White, on May 2. Then Gray was
> instructed not to work overtime without written approval, and then was
> ordered to take down a Marines poster from her cubicle wall. "Please
> change your title from public affairs director to public affairs
> officer," White instructed in a June 9 e-mail.
>
> Gray complained to Arlington's superintendent, John Metzler, and was
> briefly removed from White and Higginbotham's supervision. But on May
> 27, White sent an e-mail announcing that "Mr. Metzler changed his
> mind, I will continue as your supervisor." The acrimony increased.
> Gray went to the hospital complaining of stress-related headaches;
> while she was recovering, her BlackBerry was disconnected "to
> alleviate you from stress," as White put it.
>
> Arlington's problems with the burial of the Iraq dead go far beyond
> Gray; the cemetery is looking for its fourth public affairs director
> in the past few years. Gray contends that Higginbotham has been
> calling the families of the dead to encourage them not to allow media
> coverage at the funerals -- a charge confirmed by a high-ranking
> official at Arlington, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Gray
> says Higginbotham told staff members that he called the family of the
> next soldier scheduled for burial at Arlington and that the family,
> which had originally approved coverage, had changed its mind. Gray
> charges that Higginbotham admitted he had been making such calls to
> families for a year and said that the families "appreciated him
> keeping the media out."
>
> Higginbotham, White and Metzler did not respond to e-mail messages
> yesterday seeking their comment. An Army spokesman said Higginbotham
> and other Arlington officials call families only if their wishes
> regarding media coverage are unclear.
>
> On June 27, Gray got her termination memo. White said Gray had "been
> disrespectful to me as your supervisor and failed to act in an
> inappropriate manner." Failed to act in an in appropriate manner? The
> termination notice was inadvertently revealing: Only at Arlington
> National Ceremony could it be considered a firing offense to act
> appropriately.

Army Secretary Asks for Probe of Firing
-

By Ann Scott Tyson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, July 12, 2008; A02

Army Secretary Pete Geren has asked his staff for an internal review
to examine the Army's firing last month of Gina Gray, the former
public affairs director of Arlington National Cemetery who had worked
to restore media coverage of military funerals.

"The goal is to strike the right balance between the family's needs
and wishes, which always are our top priority, and the interest of the
press," Army spokesman Paul Boyce said in an e-mail.

"The Army continues to work with families and the media to ensure a
respectful experience that honors the memories of our fallen soldiers
and veterans," Boyce said, noting that the cemetery "hosts thousands
of local reporters and national media as well as hundreds of
documentary productions and book photographers each year."

In a phone interview yesterday, Gray said, "I am definitely encouraged
by any investigation into the mismanagement at Arlington Cemetery."

The Washington Post reported on Gray's firing yesterday. After
assuming her director position three months ago, Gray discovered that
cemetery officials were trying to impose new media restrictions on
funerals of Iraq war dead, despite families of the fallen having
granted permission for coverage.

Gray believed the new restrictions were wrong and were not supported
by Army regulations, The Post reported. But she was demoted six weeks
after The Post first reported on her attempts to restore news
coverage, and she was fired on June 27.

"Had I not put my foot down, had I just gone along with it and not
said regulations were being violated, I'm sure I'd still be there,"
Gray told The Post, calling her firing retaliatory. "It's about doing
the right thing."

Geren is seeking more information on the matter, Boyce said. "The
secretary of the Army has asked for an internal review by his staff,"
he said.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Iran will target US bases if attacked
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/c1bf23625dcd7318?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 12:30 pm
From: NOMOREWARFORISRAEL

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=63501§ionid=351020101

Iran will target US bases if attacked
Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:18:18

Iran says its Armed Forces would target the heart of Israel and 32 US
bases before the dust settles from an attack on the country.

"If the enemy was confident that it would emerge victorious from an
attack on Iran, they would not put it off for even another day," an
aide to the Leader of the Islamic Revolution, Mojtaba Zolnoor said on
Saturday.

Today, through the efforts of Iranian experts, the military
capabilities of the country's Armed Forces have reached an advanced
level, he added.

"If the US or Israel fire one bullet against Iran, the Iranian Armed
Forces will not hesitate to target the heart of Israel and 32 US
military bases in the region before the dust settles," warned
Ayatollah Khamenei's representative in the Islamic Revolution Guards
Corps (IRGC).

Iran has repeatedly warned that its Armed Forces are fully prepared to
immediately deliver a crushing response to any offensive on Iranian
territory.

Iran's words of caution come following escalating speculation that the
Israeli maneuver in early June was held in preparation for a war with
the Islamic Republic.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

New War Brewing: US, Israel Take Dangerous Steps
by Eric Margolis
GENEVA - The U.S., Israel and Iran are playing a very dangerous game
of chicken that soon could result in a new Mideast war.

U.S. intelligence has concluded that Iran is not working on nuclear
weapons. But the Bush administration and Israel, recently joined by
France, are issuing increasingly loud threats of military action to
frighten Iran into halting its nuclear enrichment program.

Iran insists its nuclear program is entirely for civilian use. Tehran
is alternating between conciliatory statements and threats to
retaliate against any attack by inflicting economic chaos on the
global economy. Europe fears the economic damage a war against Iran
would bring far more than Iran¢s nuclear program.

Senior Israeli officials are openly threatening to attack Iran¢s
nuclear installations before President George W. Bush¢s term expires.
Early, this month Israel staged a large, U.S.-approved exercise using
F-15s and F-16s to rehearse an attack over 900 miles - precisely the
distance to Iran¢s nuclear facilities.

The highly regarded American journalist Seymour Hersh just confirmed
that the U.S. Congress authorized a $400-million plan to overthrow Iran
¢s government and incite ethnic unrest. This column reported a year
ago that U.S. and British special forces were operating in Iran,
preparing for a massive air campaign. Israel¢s destruction of an
alleged Syrian reactor last fall was a warning to Iran.

This week a Pentagon official claimed an Israeli attack on Iran was
coming before year end.

Other Pentagon and CIA sources say a U.S. attack on Iran is imminent,
with or without Israel. The Bush administration is even considering
using small tactical nuclear weapons against deeply buried Iranian
targets.

Senior American officers Admiral William Fallon and Air Force Chief
Michael Mosley recently were fired for opposing war against Iran.
According to Israel¢s media, President Bush even told Israel¢s Prime
Minister Ehud Olmert that he could not trust America¢s intelligence
community and preferred to rely on Israeli intelligence.

AIR BLITZ

Intensifying activity is evident at U.S. bases in Europe and the Gulf,
aimed at preparing a massive air blitz that may include repeated
attacks on 3,100 targets in Iran. Other sources say Iranian
Revolutionary Guard installations will be barraged by cruise
missiles.

In Washington, Congress, under intense pressure from the Israel lobby,
is about to adopt a resolution calling for a naval blockade of Iran,
an overt act of war.

Pro-Israel groups have been airing TV commercials claiming Iran is
attacking American troops in Iraq and threatens the U.S.

The Bush administration¢s last desperate act, its Gotterdammerung,
could be war with Iran. UN weapons inspectors concur with U.S.
intelligence that there is no proof Iran is working on nuclear arms,
but the neocon war party in Washington is determined to loosen a final
Parthian shaft by striking Iran.

Israel asserts the right to maintain its Mideast nuclear monopoly by
destroying all fissile-producing reactors in the region. Iran vows to
retaliate against Israel with its inaccurate Shahab missiles, shut the
Strait of Hormuz and mine the Gulf, producing worldwide financial
panic, severe fuel shortages, and $400-$500 per barrel oil. Iran
likely will attack U.S. forces in Afghanistan, Iraq and Kuwait, and
strike Saudi and Kuwaiti oil facilities. Canadians in Afghanistan
could also become targets.

GRAVE DAMAGE

The embattled Bush administration¢s bunker mentality is leading to war
that will gravely damage long-term U.S. Mideast interests. A single
Iranian missile hit on Israel¢s reactor would do more damage to the
Jewish state than all its previous wars. Besides, Israel cannot
destroy Iran¢s nuclear infrastructure. A U.S. or Israeli attack on
Iran will guarantee Tehran decides to build nuclear weapons. Israel
and Iran have turned their regional rivalry into a confrontation that
threatens all.

Iran¢s supreme leader, Ali Khamenei, not its bombastic President
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, controls that nation¢s military and insists Iran
will not produce nuclear weapons. Israel claims it faces a second
holocaust. Iran says Israel¢s nuclear forces threaten its existence.

The dogs of war are being unleashed.

Eric Margolis is a columnist for The Toronto Sun.

Published on Sunday, July 6, 2008 by The Toronto Sun

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/07/06/10160/

----------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Ron Paul *Iranians Tested Missiles AFTER Israel had WAR
GAMES!
Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 10:11 AM

Ron Paul *Iranians Tested Missiles AFTER Israel had WAR GAMES!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1y47K29J1o

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Israel should not be allowed to push US into war with Iran

No More Blank Checks for War
by Patrick J. Buchanan
Friday, July 11, 2008

After the assassination of the archduke in Sarajevo on June 28,
1914, Austria got from Kaiser Wilhelm a "blank cheque" to punish
Serbia. Germany would follow whatever course its ally chose to
take. Austria chose war on Serbia. And World War I resulted.

On March 31, 1939, Britain gave a blank check to Poland in its
dispute with Germany over Danzig, a town of 350,000 Germans. Should
war come, Britain would fight on Poland's side.

Poland refused to negotiate, Adolf Hitler attacked, and Britain
declared war. After six years, the British Empire collapsed.
Germany was burnt to ashes. Poland entered the slave quarters of
Joseph Stalin's empire.

Lesson: No great power should ever give to a small ally or client
state a blank check to drag it into war.

This raises the question: Has President Bush given Israel a blank
check?

A year ago, Israel attacked and smashed an alleged nuclear reactor
site in Syria. In April, Israel held a five-day civil defense
drill. In June, Israel sent 100 F-15s and F-16s, with refueling
tankers, toward Greece in a simulated attack. The planes flew 1,450
kilometers, the distance to Iran's uranium enrichment facility at
Natanz.

On June 6, Deputy Prime Minister Shaul Mofaz threatened, "If Iran
continues its nuclear weapons program we will attack it."

Ehud Olmert returned from a June meeting with Bush to tell
Israelis, "George Bush understands the severity of the Iranian
threat and the need to vanquish it, and intends to act on the
matter before the end of his term."

Is Israel bluffing, or in dead earnest?

For while Israel can do damage to Iran, she cannot defeat Iran
without using nuclear weapons. But any attack Israel launched
against Iran would require U.S. complicity, and any Israeli war
with Iran would almost certainly require the United States to do
most of the fighting to win or end it.

Thus, if George Bush does not want war with Iran, with two U.S.
wars already, he must inform the Israelis in unequivocal terms that
the United States opposes any Israeli pre-emptive strike on Iran,
and will not assist but denounce any such attack.

If Bush believes war with Iran is vital to U.S. security, he should
make that case to Congress. To allow Israel to start a war we do
not want would be an abdication of his duty as president.

Clearly, among the reasons Israel conducted its dress rehearsal for
war was to maximize pressure on Iran to halt enriching uranium.
Bush may well have welcomed the added pressure.

But as the Iranians have insisted, they are entitled, under the
nuclear non-proliferation treaty they signed and Israel did not, to
enrich uranium for fuel in power plants. Tehran has declared it
will not be the only nation to surrender its legal rights under the
NPT. And in response to the Israeli military exercises, Tehran
conducted its own missile-firing exercises this week.

If neither side yields, confrontation is inevitable. Perhaps soon.

For we are only four months from the election, and Israel is pawing
the ground to attack Iran's nuclear facilities.

Is this Bush's back door to war with Iran?

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Adm. Mike Mullen, in Israel a week
ago, returned to say a "third front" in the Middle East, with Iran,
would be "extremely stressful" to U.S. forces.

He is saying that U.S. ground forces probably cannot now cope with
another war, with a nation three times as large as Iraq.

Asked about Israel taking unilateral action, Mullen replied, "This
is a very unstable part of the world, and I don't need it to be
more unstable." But Mullen is not the president. What did Bush tell
Olmert? Does Israel have a green light, a yellow light or a red
light?

Should Israel attack Iran and Bush deny complicity, he would no
more be believed than were Britain and France in 1956. Then, the
Israelis stormed into Sinai, and Britain and France said they were
intervening to separate the warring nations and secure the Suez
Canal. Outraged, Ike ordered the British, French and Israelis alike
to get out of Suez and Sinai. They did.

President Bush must step up to the plate.

If he believes sanctions are not succeeding and Iran's nuclear
program must be halted, he should go to Congress for authority to
neutralize the facilities. If he has not so concluded, he should
tell Israel it is not to start a war that U.S. airmen, sailors,
soldiers and Marines will have to finish.

America needs to restore that absolute freedom of action in matters
of war and peace she once had, before entering the skein of
entangling alliances that now encumber the republic.

No ally, no client state, should ever be allowed to drag America
into a war she has not chosen, constitutionally, to fight.

No more blank checks for any nation.

SOURCE:

http://buchanan.org/blog/2008/07/pjb-no-more-blank-checks-for-war/

---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------

Israel Believes Obama Will 'Deprive' It of Political Support for
Iran Attack

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/07/israel-believes-obama-
will-deprive-it-of-support-to-attack-iran.html

Here is a tiny URL for the above one:

http://tinyurl.com/5bpvvb

---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------

Subject: DE BORCHGRAVE: Attack plans spiked (see the comments posted
at the bottom of the URL for this article as well)

Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 5:40 AM

DE BORCHGRAVE: Attack plans spiked
Wednesday, July 9th, 2008

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jul/09/attack-plans-spiked/

See Video: Neocons Pushed Us into War with Iraq and Now with Iran!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbxD55LnlGg&feature=PlayList&p=71316451BEDD9F8F&index=0&playnext=1

Here is a tiny URL for the above one:

http://tinyurl.com/5johhg

http://neoconzionistthreat.blogspot.com/2008/07/neocons-pushed-us-into-war-with-iraq.html

Here is a tiny URL for the above one:

http://tinyurl.com/5aspp5

Scott McClellan Questioned about Neocon Push for Iraq War:

http://neoconzionistthreat.blogspot.com/2008/06/scott-mcclellan-questioned-about-neocon.html

Here is a tiny URL for the above one:

http://tinyurl.com/6gzo4o

Additional linked via the pics at the following URLs:

http://neoconzionistthreat.com

http://neoconzionistthreat.blogspot.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking Into the Lobby

The American Israel Public Affairs Committee's annual conference is
one of Washington's most important--and least reported--events.

http://www.amconmag.com/2008/2008_06_30/article3.html

by Philip Weiss

For three days in the capital in early June, suspense built over the
question of how the American Israel Public Affairs Committee
conference would greet Barack Obama. There was a lot of grousing about
Obama in the hallways of the Washington Convention Center, and AIPAC
officials repeatedly warned the faithful to be respectful. "We are not
a debate society or a protest movement. ... our goal is to have a friend
in the White House," executive director Howard Kohr said in a strict
tone. It wasn't hard to imagine things going poorly: Obama gets booed
on national television. He feels insulted. Conservative Jewish donors
and voters turn off to Obama. He becomes president without their
support. AIPAC has no friend in the Oval Office.

But of course, Obama complied. His speech became the annual example
the conference provides of a powerful man truckling. Two years ago, it
was Vice President Cheney's red-meat speech attacking the
Palestinians. Last year, it was Pastor John Hagee's scary speech
saying that giving the Arabs any part of Jerusalem was the same as
giving it to the Taliban. Obama took a similar line. He suggested that
he would use force to stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons, made no
mention of Palestinian human rights, and said that Jerusalem "must
remain undivided," a statement so disastrous to the peace process that
his staff rescinded it the next day. Big deal. The actual meeting had
gone swimmingly.

This was my first AIPAC conference, and the first surprise was how
blatant the business of wielding influence is. The conference makes no
bones about this function, the most savage expression of which is the
Tuesday dinner at which AIPAC performs its "roll call," where the
names of all the politicians who have come to the conference are read
off from the stage by three barkers in near auctioneer fashion. The
pols try to outdo one another in I-love-Israel encomia. House Speaker
Nancy Pelosi surely won the day when she teared up while dangling the
dogtags of three Israeli soldiers captured by Hezbollah and Hamas two
years ago.

The second big surprise was that apart from coverage of the headline
speakers, the AIPAC conference is a media no man's land. It would be
hard to imagine a more naked exhibition of political power: a
convention of 7,000 mostly rich people, with more than half the
Congress in attendance, as well as all the major presidential
candidates, the prime minister of Israel, the minority leader, the
majority leader, and the speaker of the House. Yet there is precious
little journalism about the spectacle in full. The reason seems
obvious: the press would have to write openly about a forbidden
subject, Jewish influence. They would have to take on an unpleasant
informative task that they have instead left to two international
relations scholars in their 50s--Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer,
authors of last year's book The Israel Lobby.

The press is missing a phantasmagorical event. Imagine a basement
meeting in the Warsaw Ghetto transplanted to the biggest hall in
Vegas, and you have something of the feeling of the thing. The staging
is faultless. Little documentaries called "Zionist Stories" play on
the Jumbotron, complete with footage of Auschwitz, and then the
subject of the documentary comes out on stage to thundering applause.
There is breakout session after breakout session on Middle East policy
and Jewish identity and anti-Semitism, with star turns by Natan
Sharansky, Bill Kristol, and Leon Wieseltier. The press was excluded
from "Advanced Lobbying Techniques," but still this is a feast of the
political condition. And posh. The roll call is described by AIPAC as
the largest seated dinner in Washington. The wine flows. I went about
in a daze of awe and admiration.

My awe was for men like Haim Saban, a toymaker and giant donor to the
Democratic Party. After his Zionist story, Saban came out on stage
wearing a platinum tie and white shirt and silver gray suit. He has
wonderful presence and something of an Arab look--black-haired, wide
forehead. He was surrounded by 200 college students, veterans of the
Saban Leadership Seminars he sponsors at AIPAC.

On Middle East policy, Saban is barely distinguishable from his
Republican counterparts, who are there in equal force. The main hall
of the conference was filled with lavishly-produced banners featuring
AIPAC donors, not a few with trophy wives, alongside statements of
their mission. There was Donald Diamond, an Arizona real estate
developer whom the New York Times recently profiled on the front page
after he raised $250,000 for John McCain. The Times said nothing in
its piece about Diamond's Israel work. But that was all the banner was
about. "The U.S.-Israel relationship is the single most important
determinant of democracy in the world, and we must commit to securing
it," Diamond wrote. "It is so obvious to us that the Jewish community
is a family and that we have to take care of each other."

I was writing that down when an AIPAC spokesman stopped to check my
credentials. The audience for this stuff isn't the public, it's people
in the hall--other rich Jews who might put AIPAC in their wills.

At most conventions, people gather out of self-interest. Therein lies
my admiration: the AIPAC'ers didn't come for selfish reasons. They are
devoutly concerned with the lives of people they don't know, very far
away. Yes, people with whom they feel tribal kinship. When Israelis
came out on the dais to speak, they were almost invariably overwhelmed
by the generosity, if not the Vegas schmaltz. "There is a tremendous
amount of love in this place," Meir Nissensohn, an Israeli executive
of IBM, said in wonder. "If it was a beaker, it would explode." Even a
sharp critic like myself of what AIPAC is doing to American policy in
the Middle East was frequently moved by the pure loving feeling that
surrounds you at every moment.

Among the devout there is only one real issue: What is the latest
AIPAC line? This is the organization's function. After consulting
closely with the Israeli political leadership (leaning toward the
right wing), AIPAC regurgitates a simple version of Israeli policy to
its followers, who in turn regurgitate that line to American
politicians. AIPAC'ers do this with the conviction that Israel's life
is on the line. "It is we that are the guardians of that
relationship," AIPAC president David Victor said. James Tisch, the
Lowes executive and leader in the Jewish community, warned the
audience that it might be 1939 all over again were it not for them.

AIPAC makes sure the Israeli line is America's line by cultivating
politicians before they reach the national scene. Victor described
this process when he warned the audience that 10 percent of Congress
will be new next year because so many seats are open: "Do we know
them? Do they know us? Have they

__________________________________________

Philip Weiss is at work on a book about Jewish issues. He blogs at

www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/

--------------------------------------------------------

Stop The AIPAC sponsored "Iran War Resolution"

http://www.warwithoutend.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=91563

Additional about AIPAC's push for the coming war with Iran via the
following URL (be sure to access the Scott Ritter youtubes linked at
the top of the comments section as well):

AIPAC Pushing US to War with Iran for Israel:

http://neoconzionistthreat.blogspot.com/2007/10/re-aipac-is-pushing-us-to-war-with-iran.html

Hedges: It's Insane to Attack Iran:

http://neoconzionistthreat.blogspot.com/2008/05/hedges-its-insane-to-attack-iran.html

Bob Barr: Attacking Iran Highly Irresponsible and Detrimental:

http://neoconzionistthreat.blogspot.com/2008/05/bob-barr-attacking-iran-highly.html

McCain's loyalty is to Israel first and foremost:

http://neoconzionistthreat.blogspot.com/2008/03/make-people-aware-subscribe.html

Walt & Mearsheimer's Proof That 'Tail Wagged the Dog' Points American
Jews to a Universalist Ethos:

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/09/more-on-walt-me.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Shaped Charge in Naval Artillery
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/062518ada3f73c35?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 12:39 pm
From: "Per Nordenberg"

"Taki Kogoma" <quirk@swcp.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:slrng7htk0.94o.quirk@chishio.swcp.com...
> On 2008-07-12, sappr67@hotmail.com <sappr67@hotmail.com>
> allegedly proclaimed to sci.military.naval:
>> Given that a shaped charge, especially of 12" diameter, will penetrate
>> a great distance of material, including steel armor, were there
>> pre-carrier age experiments to manufacture a shaped charge naval
>> shell, shaped charge torpedo warhead or shaped charge anti-ship bomb ?
>
> Some light ASW torpedos have had shaped charge ("Directed Energy")
> warheads for 20+ years.

Like Stingray for example?

Regards,

Per Nordenberg

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Saga Of Joe Horn: Texas Man Cleared In Shotgun Shootings
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/b45c4120f16c2555?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 10 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 12:42 pm
From: "D. Spencer Hines"

The Metropolitan Police, as an organization, were FINED -- heavily --
following a London jury's surprise verdict.

That was sufficient justice -- no one should have gone to jail -- as Little
Willie Black The Pink Red would have it.

One of the greatest SNAFUS and glitches was that only a few London police
are permitted to carry FIREARMS -- the risibly named "Firearms Officers" --
who did not arrive at the scene on time -- and the police did not have a
detailed, coordinated plan in place to deal with a potential bomber.

There are MANY disputed facts and events involved here. See below for a
complete discussion:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes>

Blame the higher-ups if you will -- perhaps the police commissioner, Sir Ian
Blair, should have been forced to resign.

"It has widely been reported in the press as of May 2008 that Sir Ian's
contract as Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Service would not be
renewed when it expires in 2010. [7] Sir Ian was allegedly alerted to this
by the Chairman of the Metropolitan Police Authority, Len Duvall."

"The Telegraph reported that Sir Ian's "job had been in peril since firearms
officers mistakenly killed the innocent Brazilian electrician Jean Charles
de Menezes on 22 July 2005. Just before the mayoral election which
established Boris Johnson as the new Mayor of London, Duvall told Sir Ian
that his five-year contract would not be renewed upon its expiration." --
Wikipedia -- Ian Blair

But the police actually doing the shooting should not be further harassed --
much less do stir time -- as Little Willie wants them to.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor

== 2 of 10 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 12:59 pm
From: "D. Spencer Hines"

This statute is eminently sound and reasonable too.

Let The Perpetrators Of Crime Beware...

An Armed Citizenry Is Our Best Defense.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
---------------------------------------------

<http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/503-00/055.PDF>

503.055 Use of defensive force regarding dwelling, residence, or occupied
vehicle --

Exceptions.

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of
death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using
defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily
harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process
of unlawfully and forcibly entering or had unlawfully and forcibly entered a
dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or
was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the
dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that
an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or
had occurred.

(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) of this section does not
apply if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be
in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as
an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for
protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of
no contact against that person;

(b) The person sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is
otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of the
person against whom the defensive force is used;

(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity
or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an
unlawful activity; or

(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a peace officer,
as defined in KRS 446.010, who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling,
residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties, and
the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable
law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the
person entering or attempting to enter was a peace officer.

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked
in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat
and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force,
including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to
do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another
or to prevent the commission of a felony involving
the use of force.

(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a
person's dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so
with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

Effective: July 12, 2006
History: Created 2006 Ky. Acts ch. 192, sec. 2, effective July 12, 2006.

== 3 of 10 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 1:03 pm
From: "William Black"

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:SO7ek.127$AB3.706@eagle.america.net...
> The Metropolitan Police, as an organization, were FINED -- heavily --
> following a London jury's surprise verdict.
>
> That was sufficient justice -- no one should have gone to jail -- as
> Little
> Willie Black The Pink Red would have it.

Someone got shot dead, shot eleven times...

He was innocent, he did nothing wrong, the police then told a pack of
lies.

There wasn't even a trial.

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

== 4 of 10 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 1:13 pm
From: Jack Linthicum

On Jul 12, 4:03 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
> "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote in messagenews:SO7ek.127$AB3.706@eagle.america.net...
>
> > The Metropolitan Police, as an organization, were FINED -- heavily --
> > following a London jury's surprise verdict.
>
> > That was sufficient justice -- no one should have gone to jail -- as
> > Little
> > Willie Black The Pink Red would have it.
>
> Someone got shot dead, shot eleven times...
>
> He was innocent, he did nothing wrong, the police then told a pack of
> lies.
>
> There wasn't even a trial.
>
> --
> William Black
>
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.

In the words of the Man with no Name, Clint Eastwood, in The Good, The
Bad, and the Ugly (just finished on TV) "there's them that has loaded
guns and them that don't."

== 5 of 10 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 1:32 pm
From: "William Black"

"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:c5b8ea48-364a-4450-bb76-b5c74a4750d8@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 12, 4:03 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:SO7ek.127$AB3.706@eagle.america.net...
>>
>> > The Metropolitan Police, as an organization, were FINED -- heavily --
>> > following a London jury's surprise verdict.
>>
>> > That was sufficient justice -- no one should have gone to jail -- as
>> > Little
>> > Willie Black The Pink Red would have it.
>>
>> Someone got shot dead, shot eleven times...
>>
>> He was innocent, he did nothing wrong, the police then told a pack of
>> lies.
>>
>> There wasn't even a trial.
>
> In the words of the Man with no Name, Clint Eastwood, in The Good, The
> Bad, and the Ugly (just finished on TV) "there's them that has loaded
> guns and them that don't."

It's very doubtful that Mr Menezes could have acquired a legal firearm
anywhere outside his home in Brazil or in Texas.

He was an 'overstayer' with no legal papers and a forged visa in his
passport.

It is not difficult for a foreign national to obtain a firearms license, my
wife has one, but your papers get checked quite thoroughly.

--
William Black

== 6 of 10 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 1:34 pm
From: "John Briggs"

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>
> One of the greatest SNAFUS and glitches was that only a few London
> police are permitted to carry FIREARMS -- the risibly named "Firearms
> Officers" -- who did not arrive at the scene on time -- and the
> police did not have a detailed, coordinated plan in place to deal
> with a potential bomber.

There is a direct parallel with the Joe Horn case, as the firearms team were
given a direct order by their radio controller to NOT shoot de Menezes, but
rather to arrest him before he entered the tube station.

> There are MANY disputed facts and events involved here. See below
> for a complete discussion:

NONE of the "facts" or "events" are disputed.
--
John Briggs

== 7 of 10 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 1:44 pm
From: Jack Linthicum

On Jul 12, 4:32 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:c5b8ea48-364a-4450-bb76-b5c74a4750d8@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jul 12, 4:03 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >> "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote in
> >> messagenews:SO7ek.127$AB3.706@eagle.america.net...
>
> >> > The Metropolitan Police, as an organization, were FINED -- heavily --
> >> > following a London jury's surprise verdict.
>
> >> > That was sufficient justice -- no one should have gone to jail -- as
> >> > Little
> >> > Willie Black The Pink Red would have it.
>
> >> Someone got shot dead, shot eleven times...
>
> >> He was innocent, he did nothing wrong, the police then told a pack of
> >> lies.
>
> >> There wasn't even a trial.
>
> > In the words of the Man with no Name, Clint Eastwood, in The Good, The
> > Bad, and the Ugly (just finished on TV) "there's them that has loaded
> > guns and them that don't."
>
> It's very doubtful that Mr Menezes could have acquired a legal firearm
> anywhere outside his home in Brazil or in Texas.
>
> He was an 'overstayer' with no legal papers and a forged visa in his
> passport.
>
> It is not difficult for a foreign national to obtain a firearms license, my
> wife has one, but your papers get checked quite thoroughly.
>
> --
> William Black
>
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
> Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
> I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
> All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
> Time for tea.

If I remember the ending correctly there was some tomfoolery with the
guns which left Lee Van Cleef dead and Eli Wallach with an unloaded
gun. The moral was make sure you are armed before you face a situation
with other armed people.

== 8 of 10 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 1:44 pm
From: "D. Spencer Hines"

Another black mark against him in the ledger.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:g5b4c3$l9v$1@registered.motzarella.org...

> He was an 'overstayer' with no legal papers and a forged visa in his
> passport.

== 9 of 10 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 1:44 pm
From: "D. Spencer Hines"

Nonsense...

He was reportedly shot EIGHT times -- seven times in the head and once in
the shoulder.

Three other shots were allegedly fired but MISSED.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:g5b2md$ag2$1@registered.motzarella.org...

> Someone got shot dead, shot eleven times...

== 10 of 10 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 1:53 pm
From: "D. Spencer Hines"

Facts, Factoids, Fabrications, Falsehoods & Fantasies...

Par For The Course...

In The Intelligence Game.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes#Disputed_facts_and_events>

Disputed facts and events

Many of the "disputed" facts in this section were very quickly resolved.
Some were later demonstrated as being patently false and to be fabrications
of various "eyewitnesses" and journalists, with the media drawing
connections between the incident and similar incidents investigated by the
Devlin committee.[63]

Clothing

With regards to his dress on the day of the shooting The Observer reported
that he was dressed in "baseball cap, blue fleece and baggy trousers." Mark
Whitby, a witness to the shooting, told Reuters that he observed de Menezes
wearing a large winter coat, which "looked out of place".[64] Vivien
Figueiredo, a cousin of de Menezes, was later told by police that de Menezes
was wearing a denim jacket on the day of the shooting.[65] Anthony Larkin,
another eyewitness, told the BBC that de Menezes appeared to be wearing a
"bomb belt with wires coming out."

Based on these eyewitness reports, press speculation at the time said that
wearing such heavy clothing on a warm day raised suspicions that de Menezes
was hiding explosives underneath, and was therefore a potential suicide
bomber. At the time of the shooting, the temperature in London (at a
Heathrow Airport weather station) was about 17 °C (62 °F).[66]

No device resembling a bomb belt was reported as found. De Menezes was also
not carrying a tool bag, since he had left it with his work colleague the
previous evening. According to the report on leaked IPCC documents, de
Menezes was wearing a pair of jeans and a light denim jacket. This was
confirmed by a photo of his body on the floor of the carriage after the
shooting.[67]

Police challenge

Police initially stated that they challenged de Menezes and ordered him to
stop outside Stockwell station. Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian
Blair said in a later press conference that a warning was issued prior to
the shooting. Lee Ruston, an eyewitness who was waiting on the platform,
said the police did not identify themselves. The Times reported "senior
police sources" as saying that police policy would not require a warning to
be given to a suspected suicide bomber before lethal action was taken.[68]

The leaked IPCC documents indicated that de Menezes was seated on the train
carriage when the SO19 armed unit arrived. A shout of 'police' may have been
made, but the suspect never really had an opportunity to respond before he
was shot. The leaked documents indicated that he was restrained by an
undercover officer before being shot.

Ticket barrier

Witnesses stated that up to twenty police officers in plain clothes pursued
de Menezes into Stockwell station, that he jumped over the ticket barrier,
ran down an escalator and tried to jump onto a train.[69] The de Menezes'
family were briefed by the police that their son did not jump over the
ticket barrier and may have used a Travelcard to pass through; this was
subsequently confirmed by CCTV recordings shown at the Metropolitan Police's
trial.[65]

The pathologist's post mortem report, which was written in the presence of
senior police officers five days after the shooting, recorded that Jean
"vaulted over the ticket barriers" and that he "ran down the stairs of the
tube station". By this time the police knew that this version of events was
incorrect.[70]

Police initially refused to release CCTV footage while the IPCC
investigation was ongoing, even to the family. It had been suggested that
the man reported by eyewitnesses as jumping over the barrier may have been
one of the police officers in pursuit.[71]

CCTV footage made available to the press following the Health and Safety
prosecution of the Police show him passing through the barrier normally
using his pre-paid Oyster card.

Missing CCTV footage

Initial UK media reports suggested that no CCTV footage was available from
the Stockwell station, as recording media had not been replaced after being
removed for examination after the previous day's attempted bombings. Other
reports stated that faulty cameras on the platform were the reason for the
lack of video evidence. An anonymous source confirmed that CCTV footage was
available for the ticket area, but that there was a problem with the
platform coverage. The source suggested that there was no useful CCTV
footage from the platform or the train carriage.[72]

Extracts from a later police report stated that examination of the platform
cameras had produced no footage. It said: "It has been established that
there has been a technical problem with the CCTV equipment on the relevant
platform and no footage exists." It also reported there was no footage from
CCTV in the carriage where de Menezes was shot, saying "Although there was
on-board CCTV in the train, due to previous incidents, the hard drive had
been removed and not replaced."

The platform CCTV system is maintained by the Tube Lines consortium in
charge of maintaining the Northern Line; unofficial sources from inside the
company insisted that the cameras were in working order. It was also
reported that London Underground sources insisted that at least three of the
four cameras trained on the Stockwell Tube platform were in full working
order, and rejected suggestions that the cameras had not been fitted with
new tapes after police took away footage from the previous day, 21 July,
when suspects in the failed bombings caught trains there.[73]

Motivations

Several reasons were initially posited by media sources and family members
for why de Menezes may have run from police, as indicated by initial
reports. A few weeks prior, he had been attacked by a gang and may have
perceived that he was in a similar situation upon seeing plainclothes
officers chasing him. Several sources have speculated that irregularities
about his immigration status may have given him reason to be wary of the
police,[74] however, evidence that emerged during the course of the criminal
trial into the Health and Safety charge showed that Mr de Menezes was
lawfully in the country on 22 July 2005. This is mentioned in the Stockwell
One report, at footnote 4 on page 21.[37] The Sydney Morning Herald reported
that a work colleague believed that de Menezes ran simply because he was
late for his job.[75] It was later indicated by the leaked IPCC documents
that de Menezes may have run across the platform to get a seat on the train,
and did not know at the time that he was being watched or pursued.

Gunshots

It was initially stated by police that de Menezes was shot five times in the
head. Mark Whitby, a passenger on the train de Menezes had run onto, said:
"one of [the police officers] was carrying a black handgun--it looked like an
automatic--He half tripped... they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of
him and unloaded five shots into him." Another passenger, Dan Copeland,
said: "an officer jumped on the door to my left and screamed, 'Everybody
out!' People just froze in their seats cowering for a few seconds and then
leapt up. As I turned out the door onto the platform, I heard four dull
bangs."[76] De Menezes' cousin Alex Pereira, who lived with him, asserted
that de Menezes had been shot from behind: "I pushed my way into the morgue.
They wouldn't let me see him. His mouth was twisted by the wounds and it
looked like he had been shot from the back of the neck." Later reports
confirmed that Jean Charles de Menezes was shot a total of eight times:
seven times in the head and once in the shoulder.[77]

The leaked IPCC documents also indicated that an additional three shots had
missed de Menezes. One witness claimed that the shots were evenly
distributed over a timespan of thirty seconds. However this has not been
substantiated by other witness reports or the leaked IPCC documents.[78]

Involvement of special forces

Several commentators suggested that special forces may have been involved in
the shooting. Professor Michael Clarke, Professor of Defence Studies at
King's College London, went as far as to say that unless there had been a
major change in policy it was likely that it was not the police who had
carried out the shooting, but special forces:

"To have bullets pumped into him like this suggests quite a lot about him
and what the authorities, whoever they are, assumed about him. The fact that
he was shot in this way strongly suggests that it was someone the
authorities knew and suspected he was carrying explosives on him. [...] You
don't shoot somebody five times if you think you might have made a mistake
and may be able to arrest him. [...] Even Special Branch and SO19 are not
trained to do this sort of thing. It's plausible that they were special
forces or elements of special forces."[50]
Later, on 4 August 2005, The Guardian reported that the newly-created
Special Reconnaissance Regiment (SRR), a special forces unit specialising in
covert surveillance, were involved in the operation that led to the
shooting. The anonymous Whitehall sources who provided the story stressed
that the SRR were involved only in intelligence-gathering, and that de
Menezes was shot by armed police not by members of the SRR or other
soldiers. Defence sources would not comment on speculation that SRR soldiers
were among the plainclothes officers who followed de Menezes on to the No. 2
bus.[79] On 21 August, the Sunday Herald reported that SRR men are believed
to have been in the tube train when the shooting occurred.[16]

Stockwell One states, of the SO12 surveillance teams: (p.28)

'During July 2005 each surveillance team had a member of the military
attached to them. Those soldiers were unarmed.' [37]

False rape allegations

In February 2006, a woman claimed to police that a man who resembled de
Menezes attacked her in a hotel room on New Year's Eve 2002 in West London.
Scotland Yard spent several weeks investigating the claim.[80] After the
claim was made public in March 2006, the de Menezes family denied the
allegation and claimed that the Metropolitan Police were trying to smear de
Menezes.[81] Although the family initially denied the request, a blood
sample was eventually taken with their permission from de Menezes' autopsy.
On 25 April 2006 Scotland Yard announced that forensic tests on the sample
had cleared de Menezes.[82]

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sink a Destroyer, 4 PM History Channel
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_thread/thread/3a1b2b6ad2bc8d96?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 1:31 pm
From: Rich Johnson

On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 03:17:17 -0700, Jack Linthicum wrote:

> On Jul 3, 8:13 pm, Rich Johnson <rwh.john...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:37:47 -0700, Jack Linthicum wrote:
>> > One gimmick the California wineries are practicing is taking their
>> > surplus and bottling it under a one-off label. Local wine writer
>> > mentioned that in London most of the California wines he had never
>> > heard of.
>>
>> I can't believe I'm doing this
>>
>> Our local liquor store is carring an aussie thing called Billy Rock
>> Chardonnay in a can. Is it possible that it's actually drinkable ?
>>
>> --
>> Rich
>> Enfield NS
>> Canada
>
> IIRC the wine in a can thing is an invention of the airlines. I was at a
> winery tasting room in Mendocino County and they had an extensive
> display of wines in a can. Better than trying to corkscrew a 747 full of
> connoisseurs individual selections.

SWMBO picked up a few cans of the Billy Rock Chardonnay and I tried it.
Reasonably drinkable, for which I have a fairly simple definition:
Drinkable means that it doesn't taste like they didn't wash thier feet
when they stomped the grapes

--
Rich
Enfield NS
Canada

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 12 2008 1:45 pm
From: Jack Linthicum

On Jul 12, 4:31 pm, Rich Johnson <rwh.john...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 03:17:17 -0700, Jack Linthicum wrote:
> > On Jul 3, 8:13 pm, Rich Johnson <rwh.john...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:37:47 -0700, Jack Linthicum wrote:
> >> > One gimmick the California wineries are practicing is taking their
> >> > surplus and bottling it under a one-off label. Local wine writer
> >> > mentioned that in London most of the California wines he had never
> >> > heard of.
>
> >> I can't believe I'm doing this
>
> >> Our local liquor store is carring an aussie thing called Billy Rock
> >> Chardonnay in a can. Is it possible that it's actually drinkable ?
>
> >> --
> >> Rich
> >> Enfield NS
> >> Canada
>
> > IIRC the wine in a can thing is an invention of the airlines. I was at a
> > winery tasting room in Mendocino County and they had an extensive
> > display of wines in a can. Better than trying to corkscrew a 747 full of
> > connoisseurs individual selections.
>
> SWMBO picked up a few cans of the Billy Rock Chardonnay and I tried it.
> Reasonably drinkable, for which I have a fairly simple definition:
> Drinkable means that it doesn't taste like they didn't wash thier feet
> when they stomped the grapes
>
> --
> Rich
> Enfield NS
> Canada

There is also "the health or agriculture inspector approved this
batch" drinkable.

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Saturday, July 12, 2008

25 new messages in 7 topics - digest

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