25 new messages in 6 topics - digest

rec.boats.cruising
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising?hl=en

rec.boats.cruising@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Here Lies The Remains of ASA - 6 messages, 6 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising/browse_thread/thread/fc7f4bed2c314a7c?hl=en
* ASA vs. USSailing Instructor certification? - 11 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising/browse_thread/thread/0f23b85444290331?hl=en
* Safety rail attachments? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising/browse_thread/thread/6d156bb7a9888cb7?hl=en
* steel hulls? adding armor to FG hulls - 5 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising/browse_thread/thread/4d4370de2f0cff73?hl=en
* Chainplate sealant ? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising/browse_thread/thread/9917603686000424?hl=en
* US weather. - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising/browse_thread/thread/b0e14df6ab661562?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Here Lies The Remains of ASA
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising/browse_thread/thread/fc7f4bed2c314a7c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 11:05 am
From: Martin Baxter

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
> "Marty" <baxterm@kos.net> wrote in message
> news:Qqedna18m57BfUjanZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> Jakob Krutzfeld wrote:
>>> <salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>>> news:ee7bt35usigpjqikl5cpf3f6pf4i2au5dr@4ax.com...
>>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:35:23 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's just a matter of time until Wilbur decides that someone in this
>>>> group needs
>>>> "the treatment" that he employed in ASA. They needed to see that post
>>>> in it's
>>>> entirety, and I'm sure that every one of them can see what your
>>>> "involvement"
>>>> amounts to. Within a year or two of Wilbur settling in here, and finding
>>>> correspondents, the group will no longer have any regulars. Those who
>>>> fail to
>>>> learn from history...
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ASA was the busiest when the good Capt Neal ruled it. Then the
>>> netkkkopping started,
>>
>> Bull! It was fine till the lying sack of shit Crapton dragged in the
>> flonkers.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Marty
>

[snip}

Neal, I have edit your post and left only the factual parts,
unfortunately it amounts to a null set.

Cheers
Marty

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 11:41 am
From: "Wilbur Hubbard"

"Martin Baxter" <baxter-m@rmc.ca> wrote in message
news:47d6c801$1@win9.rmc.ca...
> Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
>> "Marty" <baxterm@kos.net> wrote in message
>> news:Qqedna18m57BfUjanZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> Jakob Krutzfeld wrote:
>>>> <salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:ee7bt35usigpjqikl5cpf3f6pf4i2au5dr@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:35:23 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's just a matter of time until Wilbur decides that someone in this
>>>>> group needs
>>>>> "the treatment" that he employed in ASA. They needed to see that post
>>>>> in it's
>>>>> entirety, and I'm sure that every one of them can see what your
>>>>> "involvement"
>>>>> amounts to. Within a year or two of Wilbur settling in here, and
>>>>> finding
>>>>> correspondents, the group will no longer have any regulars. Those who
>>>>> fail to
>>>>> learn from history...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ASA was the busiest when the good Capt Neal ruled it. Then the
>>>> netkkkopping started,
>>>
>>> Bull! It was fine till the lying sack of shit Crapton dragged in the
>>> flonkers.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Marty
>>
>
> I thought it was that Katysails witch who brought in all the meows and
> alien flonkers??? Isn't it true that she sent in multiple bogus abuse
> complaints (netKKKopping) to one Gary Burnore who is the head of the alien
> flonkers and he investigated and found out the complaints were all from
> Katy and Jon Boy and that Katy had sent in complaints from five or six
> different computers under different names to make it seem like dozens of
> people where complaining about the Good Captain. When the higher-ups in
> Usenet administration found out about the festering netKKKop den in
> alt.sailing.asa they informed the meow meow army and both subscribed and
> informed the group they needed to exorcise the netKKKops or else the group
> would be reduced to a smoldering pit.
>
> They were very patient according to Capt. Neal. They gave the group many
> chances and almost a year to comply but too many in the group continued to
> support the netKKKops thus bringing ruin upon the group in the end.
> Katysails has slunk off in shame but Jon Boy remains and as long as he
> remains alt.sailing.asa will continue to be a dead group. Soon many
> servers will quit carrying it because of the low volume of posts.
>
>
> Neal, I have edit(ed) your post and left only the factual parts,
> unfortunately it amounts to a null set.
>
> Cheers
> Marty

Ha ha ha ha! How could you edit "Neal's" post when you edited MY (Wilbur
Hubbard's) post. And your edit seems to have left my posting intact. Have
you been popping some of Jon Boy's LSD pills?

But, I'm afraid the facts as stated by ME remain the facts whether or not
you try to delete them. History is history and you cannot revise history by
deleting it. What's next for you. Burning history books at the library??
Hope you're better flicking your Bic than pecking away at your keyboard.

Wilbur Hubbard

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 12:45 pm
From: Captain Morgan

On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 21:30:32 -0400, Marty <baxterm@kos.net> wrote:

>Jakob Krutzfeld wrote:
>> <salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>> news:ee7bt35usigpjqikl5cpf3f6pf4i2au5dr@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:35:23 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> It's just a matter of time until Wilbur decides that someone in this group
>>> needs
>>> "the treatment" that he employed in ASA. They needed to see that post in
>>> it's
>>> entirety, and I'm sure that every one of them can see what your
>>> "involvement"
>>> amounts to. Within a year or two of Wilbur settling in here, and finding
>>> correspondents, the group will no longer have any regulars. Those who fail
>>> to
>>> learn from history...
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ASA was the busiest when the good Capt Neal ruled it. Then the netkkkopping
>> started,
>
>
>Bull! It was fine till the lying sack of shit Crapton dragged in the
>flonkers.
>
>Cheers
>Marty

From what I remember the whole episode started with a catfight between
2 female members. It looked as though they were fighting over the
attention of Neal and it got real ugly. One's motherhood was
questioned, there were accusations of alcoholism, etc and the whole
thing escalated. One went and got other members of her subscription
service in on the whole thing, then complaints were supposedly filed,
someone apparently lost their job, there was international hacking,
software robot attacks, late night phone calls to non-anonymous
members and all other types of rancid vindictiveness. It didn't help
that others leapt in and inflammed it even worse to include parties
outside the initial combatants.

The lesson I see from it all is not to take sides in newsgroup spats,
don't let kooks or trolls get to you and treat others as adults. It's
not the external kooks that are the problem, it is the thin skinned in
your own group that will doom it. They will fight with the kook and
escalate it all without regard for others in the group. It is almost
universal that the destruction of any group comes from within.

The threat comes in the form of exclusiveness or intolerance. Once a
few people are excluded the camel's nose is under the tent. In the
quest for commodity a few more are excluded. Soon there is no more
"discussion" as diversity is no longer allowed. The group has become a
cult and all cults have leaders and strict enforcement. The goals of
enjoyment and learning have been replaced by blind adherence and
suppression. Avoidance is not the solution for dealing with all
problems but is the recipe for extinction. Don't cater to the thin
skinned, deal with people on a rational level.

Capt. Morgan

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 2:29 pm
From: Dave

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:45:25 -0400, Captain Morgan, aka salty@dog, aka
Charlie Morgan, aka Binary Bill said:

>In the
>quest for commodity a few more are excluded.

I take it you mean "comity" rather than "commodity."

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 3:12 pm
From: salty@dog.com

On 11 Mar 2008 16:29:02 -0500, Dave <Dave@nothere.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:45:25 -0400, Captain Morgan, aka salty@dog, aka
>Charlie Morgan, aka Binary Bill said:
>
>>In the
>>quest for commodity a few more are excluded.
>
>I take it you mean "comity" rather than "commodity."

Dave,

I have told you before that the person posting as "Captain MOrgan" is not me.
Your smartest move right now would be to disabuse yourself of that idea so that
I don't have to start adding your other names to posts.

Got it?

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 4:10 pm
From: Marty

Wilbur Hubbard scribbled his usual drivel:

Sigh, you must have been a terrible disappointment to your mother.

.................

Martin

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ASA vs. USSailing Instructor certification?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising/browse_thread/thread/0f23b85444290331?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 11:14 am
From: "Capt. JG"

<salty@dog.com> wrote in message
news:8khdt3l4132saoha0emkf19e0rbe47o3vn@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:39:11 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>"Jere Lull" <jerelull@mac.com> wrote in message
>>news:2008031102062816807-jerelull@maccom...
>>> On 2008-03-10 21:37:27 -0400, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid> said:
>>>
>>>> Was wondering what people think of the comparitive worth of these two
>>>> organizations' certification systems...
>>>>
>>>> I used to be a big ASA fan, but I'm tending more toward USS these days.
>>>
>>> As a person not knowingly rated by either, I find both useless.
>>>
>>> If I come across two possible crew-members, I'll grab the one that has
>>> dinghy-racing experience over "not" every time.
>>>
>>> Laser racers are at the top of my list, but there are a bunch of
>>> one-design boats that require similar continuous attention.
>>>
>>> "losers" in that set of classes are usually far better sailors than
>>> those
>>> who can pay the bucks for "professional" certification.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jere Lull
>>> Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
>>> Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
>>> Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/
>>>
>>
>>
>>Jere... I'm not talking about the student certifications... BKS, BC, BBC,
>>etc. I'm talking about the Instructor certifications... most schools
>>require
>>one or the other.
>
> I seem to remember your "pal" Bart not having a very high opinion of
> USSailing, even though the place he teaches advertises that their
> instructors are all certified by that organization.
>
>

I don't know where he teaches, and yes, he's a friend of mine. I know he has
some level of USS certification, but I don't know what level. Perhaps you
should ask him.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 11:17 am
From: salty@dog.com

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:14:06 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
wrote:

><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>news:8khdt3l4132saoha0emkf19e0rbe47o3vn@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:39:11 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Jere Lull" <jerelull@mac.com> wrote in message
>>>news:2008031102062816807-jerelull@maccom...
>>>> On 2008-03-10 21:37:27 -0400, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid> said:
>>>>
>>>>> Was wondering what people think of the comparitive worth of these two
>>>>> organizations' certification systems...
>>>>>
>>>>> I used to be a big ASA fan, but I'm tending more toward USS these days.
>>>>
>>>> As a person not knowingly rated by either, I find both useless.
>>>>
>>>> If I come across two possible crew-members, I'll grab the one that has
>>>> dinghy-racing experience over "not" every time.
>>>>
>>>> Laser racers are at the top of my list, but there are a bunch of
>>>> one-design boats that require similar continuous attention.
>>>>
>>>> "losers" in that set of classes are usually far better sailors than
>>>> those
>>>> who can pay the bucks for "professional" certification.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jere Lull
>>>> Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
>>>> Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
>>>> Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Jere... I'm not talking about the student certifications... BKS, BC, BBC,
>>>etc. I'm talking about the Instructor certifications... most schools
>>>require
>>>one or the other.
>>
>> I seem to remember your "pal" Bart not having a very high opinion of
>> USSailing, even though the place he teaches advertises that their
>> instructors are all certified by that organization.
>>
>>
>
>
>I don't know where he teaches, and yes, he's a friend of mine. I know he has
>some level of USS certification, but I don't know what level. Perhaps you
>should ask him.

??? I thought you started this thread because you wanted opinions on
USSailing vs ASA. I suggested that you ask Bart, since I remember him
having a very strong opinion on the subject, and personal experience.

Jeez, Jon, take a pill already.

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 12:19 pm
From: "Capt. JG"

<salty@dog.com> wrote in message
news:03jdt3lfu8aj2c7mvri6l47opk098mcrd2@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:14:06 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>>news:8khdt3l4132saoha0emkf19e0rbe47o3vn@4ax.com...
>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:39:11 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Jere Lull" <jerelull@mac.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:2008031102062816807-jerelull@maccom...
>>>>> On 2008-03-10 21:37:27 -0400, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid> said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Was wondering what people think of the comparitive worth of these two
>>>>>> organizations' certification systems...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I used to be a big ASA fan, but I'm tending more toward USS these
>>>>>> days.
>>>>>
>>>>> As a person not knowingly rated by either, I find both useless.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I come across two possible crew-members, I'll grab the one that has
>>>>> dinghy-racing experience over "not" every time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Laser racers are at the top of my list, but there are a bunch of
>>>>> one-design boats that require similar continuous attention.
>>>>>
>>>>> "losers" in that set of classes are usually far better sailors than
>>>>> those
>>>>> who can pay the bucks for "professional" certification.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jere Lull
>>>>> Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
>>>>> Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
>>>>> Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Jere... I'm not talking about the student certifications... BKS, BC,
>>>>BBC,
>>>>etc. I'm talking about the Instructor certifications... most schools
>>>>require
>>>>one or the other.
>>>
>>> I seem to remember your "pal" Bart not having a very high opinion of
>>> USSailing, even though the place he teaches advertises that their
>>> instructors are all certified by that organization.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>I don't know where he teaches, and yes, he's a friend of mine. I know he
>>has
>>some level of USS certification, but I don't know what level. Perhaps you
>>should ask him.
>
> ??? I thought you started this thread because you wanted opinions on
> USSailing vs ASA. I suggested that you ask Bart, since I remember him
> having a very strong opinion on the subject, and personal experience.
>
> Jeez, Jon, take a pill already.
>
>

What's your problem? You're the one who seems to be upset by Bart and
perhaps that he's a friend. I'm asking for others' informed opinions. If you
have no informed opinion about the differences, then kindly take your own
pill.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 12:27 pm
From: salty@dog.com

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:19:27 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
wrote:

><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>news:03jdt3lfu8aj2c7mvri6l47opk098mcrd2@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:14:06 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>>>news:8khdt3l4132saoha0emkf19e0rbe47o3vn@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:39:11 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Jere Lull" <jerelull@mac.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:2008031102062816807-jerelull@maccom...
>>>>>> On 2008-03-10 21:37:27 -0400, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid> said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Was wondering what people think of the comparitive worth of these two
>>>>>>> organizations' certification systems...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I used to be a big ASA fan, but I'm tending more toward USS these
>>>>>>> days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a person not knowingly rated by either, I find both useless.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I come across two possible crew-members, I'll grab the one that has
>>>>>> dinghy-racing experience over "not" every time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Laser racers are at the top of my list, but there are a bunch of
>>>>>> one-design boats that require similar continuous attention.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "losers" in that set of classes are usually far better sailors than
>>>>>> those
>>>>>> who can pay the bucks for "professional" certification.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Jere Lull
>>>>>> Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
>>>>>> Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
>>>>>> Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Jere... I'm not talking about the student certifications... BKS, BC,
>>>>>BBC,
>>>>>etc. I'm talking about the Instructor certifications... most schools
>>>>>require
>>>>>one or the other.
>>>>
>>>> I seem to remember your "pal" Bart not having a very high opinion of
>>>> USSailing, even though the place he teaches advertises that their
>>>> instructors are all certified by that organization.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't know where he teaches, and yes, he's a friend of mine. I know he
>>>has
>>>some level of USS certification, but I don't know what level. Perhaps you
>>>should ask him.
>>
>> ??? I thought you started this thread because you wanted opinions on
>> USSailing vs ASA. I suggested that you ask Bart, since I remember him
>> having a very strong opinion on the subject, and personal experience.
>>
>> Jeez, Jon, take a pill already.
>>
>>
>
>
>What's your problem? You're the one who seems to be upset by Bart and
>perhaps that he's a friend. I'm asking for others' informed opinions. If you
>have no informed opinion about the differences, then kindly take your own
>pill.

???

I was only trying to help.

You're welcome

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 1:38 pm
From: "Capt. JG"

<salty@dog.com> wrote in message
news:b6ndt31t4knmp94tl7fhm7ii2jnb951h4a@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:19:27 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>>news:03jdt3lfu8aj2c7mvri6l47opk098mcrd2@4ax.com...
>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:14:06 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:8khdt3l4132saoha0emkf19e0rbe47o3vn@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:39:11 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Jere Lull" <jerelull@mac.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:2008031102062816807-jerelull@maccom...
>>>>>>> On 2008-03-10 21:37:27 -0400, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>>>>>> said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Was wondering what people think of the comparitive worth of these
>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>> organizations' certification systems...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I used to be a big ASA fan, but I'm tending more toward USS these
>>>>>>>> days.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a person not knowingly rated by either, I find both useless.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I come across two possible crew-members, I'll grab the one that
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> dinghy-racing experience over "not" every time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Laser racers are at the top of my list, but there are a bunch of
>>>>>>> one-design boats that require similar continuous attention.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "losers" in that set of classes are usually far better sailors than
>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>> who can pay the bucks for "professional" certification.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Jere Lull
>>>>>>> Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
>>>>>>> Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
>>>>>>> Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jere... I'm not talking about the student certifications... BKS, BC,
>>>>>>BBC,
>>>>>>etc. I'm talking about the Instructor certifications... most schools
>>>>>>require
>>>>>>one or the other.
>>>>>
>>>>> I seem to remember your "pal" Bart not having a very high opinion of
>>>>> USSailing, even though the place he teaches advertises that their
>>>>> instructors are all certified by that organization.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I don't know where he teaches, and yes, he's a friend of mine. I know he
>>>>has
>>>>some level of USS certification, but I don't know what level. Perhaps
>>>>you
>>>>should ask him.
>>>
>>> ??? I thought you started this thread because you wanted opinions on
>>> USSailing vs ASA. I suggested that you ask Bart, since I remember him
>>> having a very strong opinion on the subject, and personal experience.
>>>
>>> Jeez, Jon, take a pill already.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>What's your problem? You're the one who seems to be upset by Bart and
>>perhaps that he's a friend. I'm asking for others' informed opinions. If
>>you
>>have no informed opinion about the differences, then kindly take your own
>>pill.
>
> ???
>
> I was only trying to help.
>
> You're welcome
>
>

Really? How's that? Did you think I forgot that I know Bart?

In that case, thanks.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 2:07 pm
From: Dave

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:27:27 -0400, salty@dog.com said:

>I was only trying to help.

People only trying to help would not close with "take a pill already," and
would most probably not put the word "pal" in quotation marks the first time
around.

I understand you bear some hostility to Bart, and perhaps your emotions
overcame your better self.

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 3:00 pm
From: salty@dog.com

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:38:01 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid> wrote:

><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>news:b6ndt31t4knmp94tl7fhm7ii2jnb951h4a@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:19:27 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>>>news:03jdt3lfu8aj2c7mvri6l47opk098mcrd2@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:14:06 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:8khdt3l4132saoha0emkf19e0rbe47o3vn@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:39:11 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Jere Lull" <jerelull@mac.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:2008031102062816807-jerelull@maccom...
>>>>>>>> On 2008-03-10 21:37:27 -0400, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>>>>>>> said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Was wondering what people think of the comparitive worth of these
>>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>>> organizations' certification systems...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I used to be a big ASA fan, but I'm tending more toward USS these
>>>>>>>>> days.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As a person not knowingly rated by either, I find both useless.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I come across two possible crew-members, I'll grab the one that
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> dinghy-racing experience over "not" every time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Laser racers are at the top of my list, but there are a bunch of
>>>>>>>> one-design boats that require similar continuous attention.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "losers" in that set of classes are usually far better sailors than
>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>> who can pay the bucks for "professional" certification.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Jere Lull
>>>>>>>> Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
>>>>>>>> Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
>>>>>>>> Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Jere... I'm not talking about the student certifications... BKS, BC,
>>>>>>>BBC,
>>>>>>>etc. I'm talking about the Instructor certifications... most schools
>>>>>>>require
>>>>>>>one or the other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I seem to remember your "pal" Bart not having a very high opinion of
>>>>>> USSailing, even though the place he teaches advertises that their
>>>>>> instructors are all certified by that organization.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't know where he teaches, and yes, he's a friend of mine. I know he
>>>>>has
>>>>>some level of USS certification, but I don't know what level. Perhaps
>>>>>you
>>>>>should ask him.
>>>>
>>>> ??? I thought you started this thread because you wanted opinions on
>>>> USSailing vs ASA. I suggested that you ask Bart, since I remember him
>>>> having a very strong opinion on the subject, and personal experience.
>>>>
>>>> Jeez, Jon, take a pill already.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>What's your problem? You're the one who seems to be upset by Bart and
>>>perhaps that he's a friend. I'm asking for others' informed opinions. If
>>>you
>>>have no informed opinion about the differences, then kindly take your own
>>>pill.
>>
>> ???
>>
>> I was only trying to help.
>>
>> You're welcome
>>
>>
>
>
>Really? How's that? Did you think I forgot that I know Bart?
>
>In that case, thanks.

I don't know how well you know Bart, or if you happened to know about his rather
strong opinions of USSailing, so I thought you might appreciate the tip. Honest.

I thought you and I had more or less agreed to a ceasefire about a year ago in a
series of private emails. Is that ceasfire still in effect, or are you trying to
break it?

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 3:10 pm
From: salty@dog.com

On 11 Mar 2008 16:07:01 -0500, Dave <Dave@nothere.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:27:27 -0400, salty@dog.com said:
>
>>I was only trying to help.
>
>People only trying to help would not close with "take a pill already," and
>would most probably not put the word "pal" in quotation marks the first time
>around.
>
>I understand you bear some hostility to Bart, and perhaps your emotions
>overcame your better self.

I think you have totally misinterpreted the whole thing, Dave. About a year ago,
Jon and I had an exchange of emails after you approached me on his behalf with
his tale of woe. It wasn't completely clear in those emails that he and Bart
were exactly "pals". Hence the quotes, which indicated a question on my part as
to whether they were actually all that friendly, even though they are
acquaintances. Jon and I had that exchange of emails because someone other than
me was giving him a very hard time, and he felt my teasing him and calling him
gay or whatever in the newsgroups was making that situation harder to deal with.
I wasn't the only one teasing him, but I was the only one that was a nice guy
and stopped.

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 3:49 pm
From: "Capt. JG"

<salty@dog.com> wrote in message
news:d20et354khlaj43r1u2se2vm63tduvou4p@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:38:01 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>>news:b6ndt31t4knmp94tl7fhm7ii2jnb951h4a@4ax.com...
>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:19:27 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:03jdt3lfu8aj2c7mvri6l47opk098mcrd2@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:14:06 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:8khdt3l4132saoha0emkf19e0rbe47o3vn@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:39:11 -0700, "Capt. JG"
>>>>>>> <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Jere Lull" <jerelull@mac.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:2008031102062816807-jerelull@maccom...
>>>>>>>>> On 2008-03-10 21:37:27 -0400, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>>>>>>>> said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Was wondering what people think of the comparitive worth of these
>>>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>>>> organizations' certification systems...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I used to be a big ASA fan, but I'm tending more toward USS these
>>>>>>>>>> days.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a person not knowingly rated by either, I find both useless.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If I come across two possible crew-members, I'll grab the one that
>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> dinghy-racing experience over "not" every time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Laser racers are at the top of my list, but there are a bunch of
>>>>>>>>> one-design boats that require similar continuous attention.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "losers" in that set of classes are usually far better sailors
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>> who can pay the bucks for "professional" certification.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Jere Lull
>>>>>>>>> Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
>>>>>>>>> Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
>>>>>>>>> Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Jere... I'm not talking about the student certifications... BKS, BC,
>>>>>>>>BBC,
>>>>>>>>etc. I'm talking about the Instructor certifications... most schools
>>>>>>>>require
>>>>>>>>one or the other.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I seem to remember your "pal" Bart not having a very high opinion of
>>>>>>> USSailing, even though the place he teaches advertises that their
>>>>>>> instructors are all certified by that organization.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't know where he teaches, and yes, he's a friend of mine. I know
>>>>>>he
>>>>>>has
>>>>>>some level of USS certification, but I don't know what level. Perhaps
>>>>>>you
>>>>>>should ask him.
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? I thought you started this thread because you wanted opinions on
>>>>> USSailing vs ASA. I suggested that you ask Bart, since I remember him
>>>>> having a very strong opinion on the subject, and personal experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeez, Jon, take a pill already.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>What's your problem? You're the one who seems to be upset by Bart and
>>>>perhaps that he's a friend. I'm asking for others' informed opinions. If
>>>>you
>>>>have no informed opinion about the differences, then kindly take your
>>>>own
>>>>pill.
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> I was only trying to help.
>>>
>>> You're welcome
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>Really? How's that? Did you think I forgot that I know Bart?
>>
>>In that case, thanks.
>
> I don't know how well you know Bart, or if you happened to know about his
> rather
> strong opinions of USSailing, so I thought you might appreciate the tip.
> Honest.
>
> I thought you and I had more or less agreed to a ceasefire about a year
> ago in a
> series of private emails. Is that ceasfire still in effect, or are you
> trying to
> break it?
>
>

What are you talking about? You're the one who posted about Bart and me
taking a pill. Or, did I get that wrong?

In any case, perhaps Bart should speak for himself. I'm soliciting opinions
about the instructor certs for the two. If you have one, I'd love to hear
it.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 3:59 pm
From: salty@dog.com

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:49:56 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid> wrote:

><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>news:d20et354khlaj43r1u2se2vm63tduvou4p@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:38:01 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>>>news:b6ndt31t4knmp94tl7fhm7ii2jnb951h4a@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:19:27 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:03jdt3lfu8aj2c7mvri6l47opk098mcrd2@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:14:06 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>><salty@dog.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:8khdt3l4132saoha0emkf19e0rbe47o3vn@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:39:11 -0700, "Capt. JG"
>>>>>>>> <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"Jere Lull" <jerelull@mac.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:2008031102062816807-jerelull@maccom...
>>>>>>>>>> On 2008-03-10 21:37:27 -0400, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
>>>>>>>>>> said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Was wondering what people think of the comparitive worth of these
>>>>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>>>>> organizations' certification systems...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I used to be a big ASA fan, but I'm tending more toward USS these
>>>>>>>>>>> days.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As a person not knowingly rated by either, I find both useless.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If I come across two possible crew-members, I'll grab the one that
>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>> dinghy-racing experience over "not" every time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Laser racers are at the top of my list, but there are a bunch of
>>>>>>>>>> one-design boats that require similar continuous attention.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "losers" in that set of classes are usually far better sailors
>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>> who can pay the bucks for "professional" certification.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Jere Lull
>>>>>>>>>> Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
>>>>>>>>>> Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
>>>>>>>>>> Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Jere... I'm not talking about the student certifications... BKS, BC,
>>>>>>>>>BBC,
>>>>>>>>>etc. I'm talking about the Instructor certifications... most schools
>>>>>>>>>require
>>>>>>>>>one or the other.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I seem to remember your "pal" Bart not having a very high opinion of
>>>>>>>> USSailing, even though the place he teaches advertises that their
>>>>>>>> instructors are all certified by that organization.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I don't know where he teaches, and yes, he's a friend of mine. I know
>>>>>>>he
>>>>>>>has
>>>>>>>some level of USS certification, but I don't know what level. Perhaps
>>>>>>>you
>>>>>>>should ask him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ??? I thought you started this thread because you wanted opinions on
>>>>>> USSailing vs ASA. I suggested that you ask Bart, since I remember him
>>>>>> having a very strong opinion on the subject, and personal experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeez, Jon, take a pill already.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>What's your problem? You're the one who seems to be upset by Bart and
>>>>>perhaps that he's a friend. I'm asking for others' informed opinions. If
>>>>>you
>>>>>have no informed opinion about the differences, then kindly take your
>>>>>own
>>>>>pill.
>>>>
>>>> ???
>>>>
>>>> I was only trying to help.
>>>>
>>>> You're welcome
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Really? How's that? Did you think I forgot that I know Bart?
>>>
>>>In that case, thanks.
>>
>> I don't know how well you know Bart, or if you happened to know about his
>> rather
>> strong opinions of USSailing, so I thought you might appreciate the tip.
>> Honest.
>>
>> I thought you and I had more or less agreed to a ceasefire about a year
>> ago in a
>> series of private emails. Is that ceasfire still in effect, or are you
>> trying to
>> break it?
>>
>>
>
>
>What are you talking about? You're the one who posted about Bart and me
>taking a pill. Or, did I get that wrong?
>
>In any case, perhaps Bart should speak for himself. I'm soliciting opinions
>about the instructor certs for the two. If you have one, I'd love to hear
>it.

Are you not well? Your responses are a bit weird to put it mildly. I told you to
take a pill after your unseemly outburst in response to my offer of help. So,
yes, you got it quite wrong. I also didn't say anything about Bart taking a
pill. I really didn't say anything about him at all except to remind you that he
had a strong opinion of USSailing that you migt want to ask him about. I only
suggested that he might have a worthwhile opinion for you. I suggested that you
ask Bart so that he CAN speak for himself.

I can stop being nice anytime you like. Your move.

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 4:17 pm
From: "Capt. JG"

<salty@dog.com> wrote in message
news:rd3et3phci3u2n9d787c1iljrrho8ao1c4@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:49:56 -0700, "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid>
> wrote:
>>What are you talking about? You're the one who posted about Bart and me
>>taking a pill. Or, did I get that wrong?
>>
>>In any case, perhaps Bart should speak for himself. I'm soliciting
>>opinions
>>about the instructor certs for the two. If you have one, I'd love to hear
>>it.
>
> Are you not well? Your responses are a bit weird to put it mildly. I told
> you to
> take a pill after your unseemly outburst in response to my offer of help.
> So,
> yes, you got it quite wrong. I also didn't say anything about Bart taking
> a
> pill. I really didn't say anything about him at all except to remind you
> that he
> had a strong opinion of USSailing that you migt want to ask him about. I
> only
> suggested that he might have a worthwhile opinion for you. I suggested
> that you
> ask Bart so that he CAN speak for himself.
>
> I can stop being nice anytime you like. Your move.
>
>

So, are you saying that you do or don't have an opinion about the two
programs?

I don't think it's relevant nor is it helpful to continually try and provoke
me. No move is required on my part.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Safety rail attachments?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising/browse_thread/thread/6d156bb7a9888cb7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 11:59 am
From: Bob

On Mar 9, 1:01 pm, terry <tsanf...@nf.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> All suggestions and/or experiences welcomed. Thanks.

THis was visited a while ago here. Try a search. As a result of the
past discussion and several interesting onions I chose to go with
amsteel small stuff. The reason being simply cheeper when considering
the swadged fittings required with SS wire.

WIth the Amsteel, or other similar low sretch synthetics, I could do
simpl fast eye splices, had good UV life, and extreamly tuff stuff.

Pleae consider ditching the SS wire for your sailor strainers.

Bob

==============================================================================
TOPIC: steel hulls? adding armor to FG hulls
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising/browse_thread/thread/4d4370de2f0cff73?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 12:26 pm
From: "tsmwebb@gmail.com"

On Mar 11, 2:45 am, dougking...@yahoo.com wrote:
> "tsmw...@mail.com" wrote:
> > Amen. But, having been tangentially involved in a completely
> > disastrous attempt to bond Kevlar (tm) fabric to PVC foam with epoxy I
> > strongly advise getting advise from the fabric provider before
> > bonding. ...
>
> I wonder why. Incompatible binder in the cloth?
> One issue with both carbon fiber & aramids (you're right, Kevlar is a
> trademarked brand name) is that the cloth is much lighter than
> conventional fiberglass... duh, that's a big reason to use it... but
> it also means that the cloth tends to float up out of the resin. ...

Good points. Kevlar has been used with great success. I can only
speculate on the reasons for the failure. I was in the shop where it
happened re-building my dagger boards and the wing was going together
on the other side of a hull of a big cat that was also building. So,
I didn't see every detail. They were building it using Kelsall's KSS
system with Kevlar twill, epoxy and pvc. They bonded one face on a
flat table with a wet lay-up using modest vacuum to clamp it. Then
they cut darts in the pvc, draped the part into mdf formers and hand
laid the inner skin. That's sop for the KSS system and it generally
works quite well. In this case, though, both the hand laid skin and
the bagged skin could be peeled off the pvc (failing at the glue
line). They did it all a second time on the assumption that the
problem was a bad epoxy mix and it failed exactly the same way. Other
parts that came off the same table using pvc from the same batch
before, during and after were fine. I was using the same epoxy to
build my boards and it was also being used in a couple of other
projects around the shop and it was fine. It's possible that they
could have contaminated the pvc skins (boat shops aren't exactly clean
rooms). That's what the guy building the plane though. But both
sides twice? I think that using twill rather than stitched cloth and
bending the parts around very tight molds (the guy wanted to mold
right around the leading edge for some reason) were contributing
factors. But whatever the reason, the epoxy/Kevlar joint was the weak
one and I think that is cause for concern or at least careful testing
when using Kevlar.

>>... Carbon
> > is less of a pain to work with but you can't use it to armor existing
> > hulls.
>
> It would help add compression srength as an outside layer. I dunno if
> it would help with impact resistance. ...

The usual argument against carbon reenforcement is that it is so stiff
that it will fail before the glass takes any load. At which point it
might be more sensible to just do away with the glass. Price and
compatibility wise "S" glass might be a better option than either
Kevlar or carbon. In a crash you want strong but flexible to absorb
energy.

-- Tom.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 1:35 pm
From: "Roger Long"

You have to be careful mixing materials of differing stretchability.
(Scientific term for "Modulus of Elasticity")

There was a rash of rudder stock failures that had an outer layer of carbon
fiber for stiffness. Turned out the plain fiberglass part of the stock was
plenty strong enough. The carbon fiber provided the required stiffness but
took up the whole load before the fiberglass part bent enough to take any
significant load. The carbon fiber fractured and the result was just like
that scratch you make on a piece of glass when you want to break it easily.

--
Roger Long

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 1:51 pm
From: "Steve Lusardi"

I am not an expert on bonding neither aramid nor carbon to existing FG
construction, so I cannot add anything there, but you need to think through
the whole scenario. Adding protection aganst puncture is only one aspect of
the required protection. Although my hull is steel and it has collision
bulkheads both forward and aft, it also utilises watertight bulkheads as
well, but even that is insufficient. You must consider the flotation
attitude of the hull under flood conditions. If any part of the deck falls
below the water surface, the boat will most likely be lost before the
flooding can be controlled.. So keeping the boat deck parallel to the water
is really important and in my case I have a rather fine entry forward and if
flooding the forward compartment should occur the bow would sink well below
the deck line. Adding adequate fixed flotation removes too much space, so my
solution, for what it is worth, is to place a 2 ton hyperlon lift bag below
the forward cabin sole that can be inflated in an emergency. Hopefully, this
would buy enough time for the pumps and to effect a repair from the outside.
Steve

<tsmwebb@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f1d7a35b-51ec-4497-a71f-2fb4012f883a@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 11, 2:45 am, dougking...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> "tsmw...@mail.com" wrote:
>> > Amen. But, having been tangentially involved in a completely
>> > disastrous attempt to bond Kevlar (tm) fabric to PVC foam with epoxy I
>> > strongly advise getting advise from the fabric provider before
>> > bonding. ...
>>
>> I wonder why. Incompatible binder in the cloth?
>> One issue with both carbon fiber & aramids (you're right, Kevlar is a
>> trademarked brand name) is that the cloth is much lighter than
>> conventional fiberglass... duh, that's a big reason to use it... but
>> it also means that the cloth tends to float up out of the resin. ...
>
> Good points. Kevlar has been used with great success. I can only
> speculate on the reasons for the failure. I was in the shop where it
> happened re-building my dagger boards and the wing was going together
> on the other side of a hull of a big cat that was also building. So,
> I didn't see every detail. They were building it using Kelsall's KSS
> system with Kevlar twill, epoxy and pvc. They bonded one face on a
> flat table with a wet lay-up using modest vacuum to clamp it. Then
> they cut darts in the pvc, draped the part into mdf formers and hand
> laid the inner skin. That's sop for the KSS system and it generally
> works quite well. In this case, though, both the hand laid skin and
> the bagged skin could be peeled off the pvc (failing at the glue
> line). They did it all a second time on the assumption that the
> problem was a bad epoxy mix and it failed exactly the same way. Other
> parts that came off the same table using pvc from the same batch
> before, during and after were fine. I was using the same epoxy to
> build my boards and it was also being used in a couple of other
> projects around the shop and it was fine. It's possible that they
> could have contaminated the pvc skins (boat shops aren't exactly clean
> rooms). That's what the guy building the plane though. But both
> sides twice? I think that using twill rather than stitched cloth and
> bending the parts around very tight molds (the guy wanted to mold
> right around the leading edge for some reason) were contributing
> factors. But whatever the reason, the epoxy/Kevlar joint was the weak
> one and I think that is cause for concern or at least careful testing
> when using Kevlar.
>
>>>... Carbon
>> > is less of a pain to work with but you can't use it to armor existing
>> > hulls.
>>
>> It would help add compression srength as an outside layer. I dunno if
>> it would help with impact resistance. ...
>
> The usual argument against carbon reenforcement is that it is so stiff
> that it will fail before the glass takes any load. At which point it
> might be more sensible to just do away with the glass. Price and
> compatibility wise "S" glass might be a better option than either
> Kevlar or carbon. In a crash you want strong but flexible to absorb
> energy.
>
> -- Tom.
>
>

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 2:44 pm
From: "tsmwebb@gmail.com"

On Mar 11, 10:35 am, "Roger Long" <stri...@maine.rr.com> wrote:
>... There was a rash of rudder stock failures that had an outer layer of carbon
> fiber for stiffness. Turned out the plain fiberglass part of the stock was
> plenty strong enough. ...

Funny you should mention that. The guy working just up the bench from
me was building the rudders and stocks for the cat and he had built
carbon/glass stocks which failed exactly as you describe. He was
building the cat's stocks out of S-glass/epoxy around small foam cores
(for forming). He'd also built successful carbon stocks (including
the one on his own boat) but felt strongly that mixing materials in
rudder stocks was a bad idea. He also thought that S-glass stocks
were nearly as good as carbon because carbon had to be over-built to
absorb shock loads that were not a problem for S-glass of the required
stiffness. Carbon that's durable enough ends up being stiffer than
needed. There's still an advantage but not nearly as much as you
would guess just looking at the materials. Adding a bit of spring
into a system that takes sudden loads can reduce the peak forces by a
lot. As you say, the engineering gets complicated. Some materials
suppliers will provide engineering help to builders and designers for
surprisingly reasonable fees (even gratis for small stuff)...

-- Tom.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 3:53 pm
From: "tsmwebb@gmail.com"

Forgive me for replying to myself, but I wanted to add this from the
letters in the February "Yachting World".

"A chairman of the Scottish branch of the Institution of Structural
Engineers once famously defined engineering as: 'The art of modeling
materials we do not wholly understand, into shapes we cannot precisely
analyze so as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess, in such a
way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our
ignorance.'"

-- Tom.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Chainplate sealant ?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising/browse_thread/thread/9917603686000424?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 1:56 pm
From: Gogarty

In article <hv5ct31913064dn55p3lokej8dqns334aa@4ax.com>, bee@chaud.com
says...
>
>
>i've never tried this product. I'm in Mex - will get some sent down.
>
I swear by it. It has cured leaks where nothing else would. If there is
enough of a hole for water to drip this stuff will run into that hole and
seal it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: US weather.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising/browse_thread/thread/b0e14df6ab661562?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 11 2008 3:17 pm
From: Larry

"Dennis Pogson" <dennis_nospampogson@ntlworld.com> wrote in
news:9BrBj.10475$qW6.5079@newsfe6-win.ntli.net:

> Give you 2 Poles or Rumanians for one of your Mexicans.
>
>

NO WAY! MINE ARE WORKERS!

==============================================================================

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "rec.boats.cruising"
group.

To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising?hl=en

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rec.boats.cruising-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising/subscribe?hl=en

To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com

==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en